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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2001, 06:07:00 PM »
By the way, in case you didn't see it, Ron Forse chimed in on the other post and noted that the bunkers on #11 were originally designed by Flynn to be grass, not sand.  Hopefully that puts that issue to bed.  

TEPaul

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2001, 06:13:00 PM »
Mark:

What was it and what did Ron Forse say? Did he say Flynn designed the green with no bunkers or did he say Flynn designed bunkers with no sand in them? Whatever he said Lehigh should leave the hole the way it is--it's fine that way--very unique! And Flynn just told me he likes it too, didn't you hear him?


GeoffreyC

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2001, 06:16:00 PM »
Mark

You lost all objectivity in my mind when you said that 11 Lehigh was better then #13 at Augusta.  You said "Interesting comments so far but no one has convinced me that this is not one of the best risk/reward par fives in this country. No one has mentioned one better! What are the options on #13 at Augusta for example? Hit a good drive and go for it and if you don't, then you hit two wedges! That is typical of most risk/reward par fives. But Lehigh's offers a lot more than that. The second shot for example is much more demanding than the layup at #13 at Augusta. "

Give me a break.  There are so many more options at Augusta its not even worth a second thought.  I assume you've seen or played the hole.  First you can try to turn the tee shot right to left and flirt with Rae's creek on the left. Bail out and put it in the pine straw on the right. Therefore the tee shot is more interesting and demanding then #11 Lehigh. OK now your on the right in the pine straw.  Do you go for it or not?  Even from the fairway you have one of the most interesting DIAGONAL hazards to cross and from a hanging lie.  Ask David Duval.  The hazard at Lehigh is straight across the fairway and poses only a distance problem. The layup on 13 at Augusta is far more then a distance problem but you must take into account how far you want for your 3rd, from what angle and how the ball will react on a highly contoured fairway. Therefore the 2nd shot is more interesting and demanding at #13 Augusta as well. Finally, the green itself is more interesting.  The only drawback to #13 is the horrible swale Nicklaus put into the greensite to trickup the pitches that miss the green long and left.

Look- we will have to disagree on the merits of #11 at Lehigh as one of the great risk reward par fives in the country. I'm not basing my opinion on my game alone, I'm counting on my game (6.6 USGA index), what I think the high handicap player has to do AND how you said your scratch player friend played the hole. We disagree. I think you are not balanced in your objectivity when it comes to Lehigh but my opinion counts for something too  


ForkaB

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2001, 06:20:00 PM »
Mark

I only hit the ball as long as Matt seems to when I'm playing on a dried out links with a 2-3 club wind at my back (of course, under those conditions, who knows how far Matt would hit it!).

In any case, when I lived in Ponte Vedra and played TPC there 10+ times, I remember the 11th as a great risk/reward hole if you got your drive out there 280 or so.  If you hit to the left side of the main fairway you had to cut a 3-wood around the big oak tree and over the alternative left lay up area and the 60 yard long bunker.  If you drove long right, you got the chance to try to draw that 3-wood around the tree and over the water to the right and front of the green.

Or, of course, you could wimp out and take an iron and hit it to the left lay up area or to the right of the oak tree and trust your sand wedge, which I normally did when I was going for a score....

PS--the 16th is great too, as others have said, if simpler than the 11th....


Mike_Cirba

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2001, 06:27:00 PM »
The fact that this discussion about the 11th is so controversial should provide some indication as to the worthiness of the hole.

Rather than just state my opinion, I think I'll relay the story of the two times I played it and let others form their own opinions.

The first time I played it, we played from the "regular tees" and I hit a superb drive down the preferred right side.  My ball ran to the end of the fairway, about 5 yards into the rough.  From there, I had about 210 yards to a green sitting WAY below me behind the river.  There was NO way that I could NOT go for it.  Unfortunately, I caught the ball a little heavy from the rough and it found the proverbial watery grave.  Drop and playing 4, I still had a chance at par, but finished with 7.

The other day, into a strong wind and from the back tees, I pulled a weak drive over near the right hand bunkers.  Going for the green was never an option, and I was told by my caddie to play my 180 yard club to the lower fairway.  Most of us tend to think of blind shots as uphill affairs, but the shot I had on 11 was basically akin to aiming at the sky and watching my ball make it's long, blind descent to an invisible point.  

Catching it just a little heavy, my ball stopped about 5 yards short of the lower fairway, which left me 110 yards from rough, over the river, to a small green pinched in by grass bunkers.  I hit a pretty good approach, about 35 feet below the hole, and proceeded to three putt.

11 at Lehigh is clearly the most controversial hole on the course.  It may also be the most thrilling.  (ok...now I'm providing editorial opinion, but what the heck!)  Yes, it may not be the most strategic hole on the course, given the limited options available to the weakest players, or those who end up going left.  However, it is also a 3 or 7 or more hole, and the course needs one of those.  The 11th fills that role quite superbly, and it's fun, quirky, thrilling, and controversial and I for one don't see a thing wrong with that!  


GeoffreyC

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2001, 06:32:00 PM »
Mike Cirba-

Don't wimp out- answer the question-

IS LEHIGH #11 one of THE BEST RISK REWARD PAR 5's IN THE COUNTRY????? AS GOOD AS IT GETS????

That's what Mark is saying.


Mike_Cirba

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2001, 06:36:00 PM »
Just wanted to add that I don't know how I'd rate Lehigh's 11th against other risk/reward par fives mentioned here except to say I've seen better and worse.  

However, I also know that I think it's a very good, intriguing, and fun hole and I wouldn't change a thing about it.


Mike_Cirba

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2001, 06:42:00 PM »
Geoffrey,

Just saw your message after posting.

Let me put my answer this way.

The 11th at Lehigh has several of my personal biases going for it.  

1) It's controversial
2) It features a blind shot
3) It does offer decision-making
4) I'd be willing to bet that it offers a wide range of daily scores.

That being said, I would disagree that it's one of the best risk/reward par fives I've ever seen.  However, it's certainly one of the most "uncertain" ones I've ever seen, and I have to respect and appreciate that.  

Generally, however, the less spectacular holes at Lehigh provide sounder architecture.  


GeoffreyC

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2001, 07:05:00 PM »
Just for the heck of it I thought I'd throw out several par 5's ALL of which I could make an excellent case for being better balanced risk/reward par 5's then 11 at Lehigh. A few might not be totally within the category (risk/reward) but all are better holes in my opinion.

In addition to the two at TPC there are

4th at Bethpage Black
3rd at Fenway
5th and 18th at Siwanoy
14th and 15th Seminole
6th Pebble Beach
All 6 par 5's at Metedeconk (who says I always bash Roger Rulewich!)
8th at Beechtree
2nd Myopia Hunt
2nd Winged FOot East
2nd Talking Stick North
15th Inniscrone
1st Boca RIo
9th Ogeechee
10th Ocean Forest.

I didn't even have to think very hard to come up with those.  I'm sure we can think of more.


TEPaul

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2001, 02:22:00 AM »
Ironically, one might almost make the case that #6 Lehigh is a better risk/reward par 5 than its mate #11. It certainly seems it might have a wider variety of choices and considerations to it.

Clearly, #6 has nothing to it as fetching and dramatic looking as the top of the hill approach to #11 but look at what the golfer can be faced with throughout #6 compared to #11 and the variety and number of nuancy risks on #6 compared to the more straightforward and obvious choices and risks on #11.

First of all I've played #6 from the much shorter and left side tees the last few times there (why are they there anyway and are they original? Why doesn't the club just go with the tees that are nearer #5 green and probably the originals?) I do remember the times I've played #6 in tournaments from the back tees that the drive is quite complicated with the crossing bunkers coming into play more from the back or seemingly so. They really appear to be in play but really aren't and consequently create some interesting deception. I understand that Ron Forse added a few of those cross bunkers that eat out to the left on the drive and more in-line with the fairway and I feel they are very good (at least for deception).  So even from the left side tees that are more inline with the hole the drive on #6 is far more complex and interesting than #11. There are more interesting choices and angles and club selection possibilities on this drive! Most players tend to go too far left and too long on this shot to a basically blind fairway area (hidden just enough by the cross bunkers). So the ideal  shot would seem to be to deal with the tree-lined right side far more than one would think or expect here to get into the middle of the fairway and have a good shot at the green on this relatively short par 5 (go/no go, risk/reward par 5).

If you err long and left on the drive (even with a solid but less well thoughtout drive) you have a complicated and multi choice  recovery style second shot that definitely needs to deal either short or long with the necked in flanking bunkers about 100+ out which are also excellent architecture creating many strategic possibilities. One can take them out of the equation by laying up short of them but then you have a longer iron into a very complicated green due to the excellent squeezing front bunkers (both sides) and the narrow front tongue of the green (also excellent) and some fairly severe slope right to left on the green and its surround.

Say you want to go for this green in two. How exactly are you going to do it and how and where do you want to try to miss it if your shot isn't spot on. There is much to think about here compared to basically crossing the river on #11. What if you come up a little short and right on #6? What if the pin is in the front tongue? What in the world are you going to do then and think of the temptations to try to be Phil Mickelson and the potential to put yourself behind the 8 ball if your not. How about if you're in the right bunker--that's just as bad!

But say you don't go for the green in two and say you even just try to play the entire hole conservatively (not really a hard thing to do strategically) until you're faced with the third shot. This is why I really like this hole because it has two completely separate dimensions depending on where the pin happens to be! If the pin is in the back the hole is one thing that's quite straightforward and not particularly demanding. But if the pin is in the front or near it then what are you going to try to do exactly? You can try to hit a little wedge, SW or probably an L wedge near the extremely narrow green space pin in front (this area actually caps off and makes the entire hole!!). But this one has to be good and a slight miscue will very likely result in a bogie when you were so near this hole with the opportunity for a birdie or a conservative par. Miscuing here this way can send most golfers into a very bad frame of mind (not a good thing with what comes after #6!). Or being so near this green with its front pin you can just elect to play well beyond the pin and putt back likely giving up your birdie to settle for a safe par. This aspect and this part of the hole is almost the ulitmate in subtle and sublime temptation!! This is the shot and choice that really tests a golfer's concentration, execution and management skills. Nowhere near as dramatic looking as the approach to #11 but probably better all things considered. I would definitely take my chances in succeeding in getting up and down having missed #11 than I would having missed #6 on the right to a front pin.

I don't think I would call #6 one of the best risk/reward par 5s in the country either but it's a very good one if you try to get too aggressive with either the tee shot or with the go approach or very much even the third shot approach if the pin position is in the front super complex spot.

Both interesting and good holes as is the rest of Lehigh! But as I said much earlier these two par 5s had better be interesting and complex because it's rare and a bit hard to defend a par 70 course architecturally that has ONLY two par 5s that are very reachable!

Mostly the better known and more respected classic par 70s like Merion and Pine Valley have opted for the much longer and almost unreachables for their two par 5s!

Thinking about the classic par 70s with two par 5s, I might have to say that Huntingdon Valley's #7 is as good or better a go/no go, risk/reward par 5 than these ones, but maybe not. Going for #7 HVGC is definitely as demanding and exhilirating and if you don't, the layup possibilities are far more varied!


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2001, 03:34:00 AM »
Guys,
I'll back off, just a little    I'm still not convinced and maybe it's because you're missing my point or you are hung up on options, options, options!  

I've never played #13 at Augusta and generally hate to comment on holes I'v never played.  However, I walked the hole endless times at the Masters and sat on the corner of the dogleg for hours at a time and watched the play.  There are no "real" options on this hole.  You either hit a good drive (for the most part a draw) and you either go for it or you hit what ever club you need to get to wedge range in for your third.  The tee shot sets up everything, just like at Lehigh.  I never said one is better than the other.  I just said the layup shot at #13 is nothing special at all.  95% of the players I watched laying up just hit pitch shots to their ideal wedge range, big deal!  

I never have said #11 at Lehigh is one of the best "overall" par fives in the country.  It is not!  It is, however, one of the best in a certain class - risk/reward,  where the far majority of golfers have a chance to one putt for eagle with two excellent golf shots.  Most of the holes GeoffreyC mentions I have played and they do not fit into this category.  

We can agree to differ, that's what makes discussing golf holes interesting.  Everyone can take a different view.  

I've played a heck of a lot of different par fives and few are as much fun as #11 at Lehigh.  If you at least don't give the "fun" factor a 10, you are too hung up on architecture, options,...that sometimes are not quite as important as fun!  

Think about all the options at #7 at Pine Valley with the fairway running out at 280 yards - what a dog that one is    All you do is lay up then lay up again, then hit wedge!  Fun, fun, fun!!
Mark


Matt_Ward

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2001, 04:29:00 AM »
GeoffreyC:

Saw you post on other risk / reward par-5's and had to take issue with your listing of Bethpage Black's 4th hole.

I've played the Black probably the most of any GCA contributor, well over 200 times in the last 30 years, and the 4th is really a three-shot hole for nearly all players -- that includes tour pros as well.

Even as long as I can hit it the reward for going in two blows is very slim since the green is so well protected in front and the narrowness of the target means you would have to hit an unbelievably high approach. to stop it or join Elvis country over the green!!!

I can only go for the green when I have a minimum of 7-iron or less. For me to do that I have to be extra aggressive with the tee shot and flirt with the right edge of the left hand bunker. Unless I really flush it the ball will end up in the bunker. Credit Tillie for that!

I believe when the Open is played next here nearly all of the players (including Tiger, Phil and Duval) will opt to play their second shot to the extreme right in order to take the greenside bunker out of play for their third shot.

I don't doubt the 4th is a super par-5 hole and the cross bunker makes for exciting strategic implications on the tee shot and second shot. Calling it a risk / reward hole is really pushing it a bit.

Lehigh's 11th is a wonderful hole in that so many different options / score possibilities are in play. I would like to see them cut the rough on the far side of the hill to a degree but if they decide to keep it as is then so be it. I believe Marks's strong beliefs are well intentioned and in many ways deserved. It's also fair to point out that since Mark is a member of the club he carries a somewhat biased perspective.

Lehigh's 11th may not be in the top five or six risk / reward holes in the country. But, gentlemen -- please give it some respect. It does reward aggressive play (if done successfully) and it does allow the high handicap player a variety of options provided the tee shot is played correctly. Look at the amount of responses on this thread and you will see that any top quality hole will always generate interest on whatever sides you happen to be.

Regards,


TEPaul

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2001, 05:23:00 AM »
Plenty of good points by Mark and Matt!

As always if anyone takes issue with something mentioned or claimed it seems that the particpants and discussers take a certain degree of offense and umbrage until they finally agree to disagree. But that's the way it always will be I suppose, so what, and that's obviously the process and result of good and keen discussion and  architectural analysis.

Mark says #11 is a really fun, fun hole because of the dramatic and exciting second shot possibilities and noone denies that. GeoffreyC says that other than that the options may be somewhat limited for various reasons. I say those limited options could be increased and enhance with a bit of grass alteration and experimentation and just as I predicted others have said that would be suicide for the score resistance of the hole! Maybe, maybe not, but I'm certain that such alteration and experimentation could be done with virutally no cost and would certainly increase some optional thinking with its strategic ramifications and could also be abandoned at virtually no cost if it wasn't liked. Obviously though, Mark doesn't agree with that or care much about those possibilities (options). So be it, if he doesn't care about those possibilities, I've no problem with that!

Mark says that many of us are hung up on options, options, options! Maybe so, but clearly in architectural analysis options are ONE of the barometers to test hole quality. Another barometer to test hole quality would be shot demand and it's particular ramifications--ie; shot values!!

But I think most of us are agreed that in Classic/strategic architecture options are basically the essence of strategic ramifications and interest!

I prefer GeoffShac's test method of hole quality regarding classic/strategic holes. Options and the amount of them are part of the barometer of testing hole quality. The amount and quality of the options are important and of course to maintain quality the options have to work well in a risk/reward sense and of course they have to be used--they have to be functional. Options that aren't used aren't good options and frankly they aren't really even options at all. And finally options themselves and their function, use and validity can be tested by the amount of Temptation they produce! I subscribe to GeoffShac's  conclusion that Temptation is basically the bottom line for most things involving classic/strategic architecture and all it's supposed to be and do.

So I see what Mark means although I don't really agree that we are too hung up on options. A hole can certainly be very good even if it has just one thing that is super exciting! But it would probably be even better, in my opinion, if it maintained that one fun thing and had increased options too--that's all I've tried to say, about Lehigh's #11, or frankly any hole!


BillV

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2001, 06:13:00 AM »
#11 is a FUN, FUN, FUN hole for a good player but for a lot of people it is a freakin' slog. If I were to ever have the opportunity to route a hole over that exact stretch of terrain, I'd cross both the hill (Probably with the drive) and the water diagonally. Think about it.  Talk about options.  

As it is now, it a slog for all but skilled players and Mark Fine's children (I'll bet he hasn't asked Laurie what she and her 9-holers think of it!).

The 18 hole LCC women call it the "Back-up" hole. (Per Mrs. redanman)

I prefer #6 (See TEPaul above) of the two 5's at LCC.  #11 and #16 Plainfield are two on one nine that are better risk/reward since that was the original question.  Granted, the reachable par 5 was the forgotten hole at Pine Valley, but why dis #7?  The party's not over on either shot, the wedge or the short game.

"#11 is a Fine risk/reward hole for a skilled player.  Period."

Quote me on that.


GeoffreyC

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2001, 06:18:00 AM »
Well perhaps we're coming together a bit.  I like Tom Pauls last post. I agree about #7 at HVCC.  Its a gem.

We all would like a hole to be fun to play usually due to all or a combination of

options
shot values
thrilling surroundings
temtation
greens with character
quirk

I simply did/do not believe that #11 at Lehigh is "as good as it gets" nor is it one of the best risk/reward par 5's in the country. It's also not as thrilling to cross the hazard that is at 90 degrees to the line of play nearly as much as it would if the little Lehigh was running diagonally across the line to the green.  

I guess I was pulling on Mark's chain a bit with that list of other par 5's but I honestly believe they are better golf holes. They come from other classic courses as well as modern ones designed by Doak, Coore/Crenshaw, Rees Jones, Roger Rulewich and von Hagge/Pat Mucci   .



Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2001, 06:58:00 AM »
I have to say I've enjoyed this discussion.  I knew when I posted it I would be setting myself up but that's ok with me.  I hope at least a few out there have a better idea of what I was talking about.  I still believe many have a mindset that won't change.  Maybe I'm one of them but in all honesty, my criteria of greatness seems much more flexible that some I've seen here.  

I love holes with options but I also love some holes that don't have many if any at all?  We've talked about the TPC in this thread.  I presume those here who feel a hole must be loaded with options to be great, hate that hole.  I happen to think it's outstanding and I like it for what it is.  The same goes for a hole like #8 at Royal Troon.  How many options do you have on that one??  How about one, somehow you hit that green or suffer the consequences!  There are no "options" there!  Yet most golfers who play these holes love to play them because they are fun and provide challenge to all levels of golfers even though there are no options.  Furthermore,  both probably "back-up" the golf course.  I wonder if the Lehigh ladies would enjoy playing these two holes BillV.  Maybe we should check with them before deciding if they are any good    I know for sure they would be controversial!

And regarding "back-up" holes, any decent risk/reward hole will potentially create some back-up.  The best ones always do because some idiot like me thinks they can hit that once in a lifetime shot and has to wait till the green clears to try it!  The amazing thing is that all you have to do is pull it off once and it's all worthwhile.  The best golf holes often tempt the golfer to do more then he or she is capable of but if they pull it off the memory lasts a lifetime.  

I think Ran will remember the 4W or whatever club it was that he knocked onto the 11th green in two.  The ball hung in the air forever before settling 20 feet from the pin (if only he could have made the putt he'd be a complete convert about this hole).  He did make his birdie!

By the way Bill, if I recall correctly, #16 at Plainfield is not what I would call a R/R par five.  Isn't it 550 yards or so from the tips?  It's a great overall par five but it's a three shot hole for most of the golfing world.  Where is the big r/r there?  Few golfers could reach that hole even from the shorter tees.

One thing about Lehigh's hole that hasn't been mentioned much is the big hump in the fairway at about the 230 range.  It gives the fairway a great look from the tee plus it plays a huge role in the tee shot.  One of the roles it plays is as an "equalizer".  The longer driver will carry that hill and get less forward roll than the shorter driver who may land just over the crest and kick hard forward.  This feature allows the shorter hitter to drive further up the fairway into that "should I go zone".  A ball can also be faded into that hill to ensure a fairway lie for the second shot.  A more aggressive draw could carry too far or end up in the left rough.  Aren't these "options" for those of you who need them.
Mark


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2001, 07:05:00 AM »
GeoffreyC,
I just saw your last post while I was sending my other one.  Again I agree with you that several of those holes you listed are better "overall" par fives.  However, from a risk/reward standpoint for the masses, I do differ in my opinion.  
Mark

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2001, 07:43:00 AM »
One last thing I forget to comment back on was #7 at Pine Valley.  I'm curious what the options are on the hole - tee shot, second shot, approach shot??  As usual, I'm probably missing something here.  By the way, this is clearly not a risk/reward par five so I don't compare it at all to Lehigh's #11 in that regard.  I only brought it up in the context of citing a hole most people here probably love but has few if any options/ways to play it that I can see.    

Matt_Ward

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2001, 08:41:00 PM »
GeoffeyC:

I also wanted to mention that some of the par-5's you highlighted from Metedeconk are not really risk and reward type holes. They're mostly three shot holes.

The 3rd on the 1st nine is not really applicable. Ditto the 6th hole on the 2nd nine. To get home in two blows from the tips is really a stretch unless you are breathing some real thin air!

The 3rd on the 3rd Nine is also a stretch for reaching in two from the tips because of the angle of the dog-leg and the way the tee is situated.

The others can be reached with all the elements of risk and reward in play.

Regards,

P.S. Still think the 11th at Lehigh is definitely a charmer and can't wait to reutrn and try my "luck" again.


GeoffreyC

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2001, 01:30:00 PM »
I enjoyed the discussion as well.  

I too look forward to getting back to Lehigh as it is indeed a wonderful course that is also maintained so that the shot values play as intended. I'll also make sure to try that shot down the hill, across the river to the green on #11.  

Afterwards, I'll look around for Mark and buy him a beer.


Paul Turner

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2001, 02:54:00 PM »
I played the 11th hole like a right plonker and BillV ended up putting a   in my score box.  So I didn't get a good feel for the hole other than the difficulty of the hanging lie approach after a miss hit layup.  

Apart from a match situation I couldn't see myself going for the green in two, the target is too small and penalty too great, for me to take the risk.  So I really think it's a genuine 3 shotter and the pitch approach is interesting enough to make it a good one too.  


Paul Turner

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2001, 03:00:00 PM »
ps the 12th and 13th holes at Lehigh are very important since the stream/river is tackled on the flank, after perpendicular crossings at 4,7,11.  

TEPaul

For a Risk/Reward par five, it doesn't get any better than #11!
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2001, 05:36:00 PM »
What a great point! I knew William Flynn would have made a helluva general. You have to deal with him head on and then you have to deal with him on the flanks too. I'm glad I only have to golf against him--I would hate to actually do battle with him!

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