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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2001, 01:47:00 PM »
Lynn:

Perhaps under Hootie's direction, ANGC feels a need to be more public oriented.  I often wonder why defense contractors and some government entities advertise.  For whatever reason, PR seems to be playing a bigger role in our society.  Maybe AGNC is trying to get their information out and preempt what might be deemed as unwarranted criticism.

You are much more knowledgeable of politics at such rarefied heights than I am, but it seems to me that if Oakmont and Riviera follows the lead of ANGC to their detriment, the blame should be put on the former and not the latter.  You are right, most golfers would give an important part of their bodies to play ANGC just once.  I am sure that its leaders know precisely what they have, and I trust that their actions are properly motivated and well thought out.  


Patrick_Mucci

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2001, 03:07:00 PM »
TBJ,

I have several questions.

1. Has ANGC has been unofficially selected as
  the Icon of American golf.

2. Just because a membership, faction, or
  dictator alters a golf course, does it
  mean they did the right thing ?
  architectually, or from a maintainance
  perspective ?

3. How many architects, chosen to represent
  a club of historical architectual
  significance, will remain absolutely true
  to the original design, or design
  principles ?

4. How many clubs cite ANGC when looking to
  reinforce a change made to their course.

5. How many people are aware or understand
  the changes made to ANGC over the years ?

6. Does ANGC have a responsibility to GOLF,
  historically and architectually,
  that transcends its membership ?

7. Is ANGC a proving ground, a lab for
  maintainance techniques which benefit the
  golf world ?

8. Does The Masters and ANGC help or hurt
  golf arachitecture and golf course
  maintainance ?  Or both ?

9. What is ANGC's mission statement ?

I love watching The Masters, the harbinger of the new golf season, spring, and I loved playing at Augusta, but I can see issues worth questioning.  Again, without constructive criticism, progress is impossible.

These are points worth debating, but, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #77 on: November 08, 2001, 04:21:00 PM »
Brian B:

It sounds like we disagree over Augusta's position in American golf.

You apparently believe no single club should be asked to take a stand on issues like the golf technology arms race.

I differ with you because I believe Augusta is in a unique position to play a constructive role, perhaps more than ALL other top clubs combined and maybe even more than the USGA.

GeoffreyC suggested I should not hold my breath waiting for ANGC to do something positive; unfortunately it appears one might give the same advice with the USGA.

What do you believe it will take to bring some sanity?

Tim Weiman

Brian B

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2001, 04:52:00 PM »
Tim,

I believe the USGA is going to have to make a decision on the ball issue. They made the Callaway ERC illegal because it hits the ball to far, why can they not make a ruling on certain ball requirements? They already do.

I also would say that I agree that ANGC is in a position to make a statement on this issue IF THEY DEEM IT NECESSARY. But I also believe that if you get the club presidents of PVGC, Shinnecock Hills, Pebble Beach & Cypress Point together to raise the issue they have just as much or more power than ANGC alone. But I also don't see these clubs adding yardage to their courses because of the current circumstances.


Patrick_Mucci

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2001, 04:56:00 PM »
Brian B,

ANGC is in the unenviable position of trying to serve and please two (2) or more masters !


Don_Mahaffey

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2001, 06:51:00 PM »
Patrick,
I'm not the person to whom you directed your questions, but being the bold one I am, I am going to jump in hear and answer one of them.

7. Is ANGC a proving ground, a lab for
maintenance techniques which benefit the
golf world ?

The answer to this question would be a big no. Among the many posts on this thread was a discussion about what type of turf the Masters is played on. It is played on overseeded Bermuda as was pointed out by Grassguy, or someone like that. The difference between Augusta and all the other course that overseed is that Augusta doesn't care about spring transition. They close (or rebuild) each summer and they seed it again in the fall. They seed at very high rates and they focus on growing the best ryegrass they can. Anyone who plays in the south knows what spring transition is like. We must be very careful going into overseed and coming out to assure a good stand of Bermuda in the summer. Augusta does not have this concern. To the lay person it does not seem like a big deal, to a Southern Superintendent it is the deal. I assure you that most Southern courses who wanted to spend the money and close for the summer could get fwy conditions very similar to what you see at the Masters. The greens are a different story, but again, if we didn't have to maintain the bent during the summer at greens height and we had every September to groom it to perfection before we opened, quality bent putting surfaces could easily be achieved.

ANGC is not, and should not be, the model or proving ground for turfgrass management. It is more like a lab, because it's not the real world.


TBJ

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2001, 05:51:00 AM »
Mr. Mucci

I'll do my best...

1.  I believe that for many people Augusta is the epitome of what they believe golf should be.  I do not, nor do many who understand that very few courses hold the resources that Augusta and its membership does.  Believe me - I do everything I can to educate people about this and most rationale people understand.  But is Augusta to be held responsible for how others view it?  

2.  I think this is the point of most of the debate.  In many cases alterations need to be made to courses to improve drainage, poor soils, poor construction, etc.  Is this the case at Augusta.  Not recently. But I think the answer to this question is sometimes yes, many times no, and always open for debate.

3.  This I obviously can not answer.  But I would say other than plan interpretation or written word, how can the TRUE thought process of the original architect be had.  From my experience many aspects of design occur for reasons not overtly apparent.

4.  I have never heard of or been a party to having Augusta cited as reasons for reworking another club.  It certainly may occur, but not in my experience.  I think in many cases persons may feel Augusta is responsible.  But again, do we hold Augusta responsible for what other clubs and memberships due.  Sounds dangerously close to passing the buck to me.  I know when my dad was handing out the whippings it didn't seem to matter that, "Tommy was doing it too."

5.  Interesting.  I think that very few people understand the scope of all of the change that has occured since Augusta was opened.  Obviously the current changes are at the forefront of everyone's mind, but the only constant at Augusta has been change.

6.  Open for debate, but I choose to follow this premise.  Even if some believe that Augusta should never have been altered, it is the sole business of the club and its members to run their club.  I don't pay the bills so I don't feel I should have any say.  None of the changes over the years has diminished my enjoyment every spring of watching the Masters.  In fact I am very interested to see how the current crop affects play.  I am one who believes major championships should challenge the best golfers.  That is what separates Augusta from The Quad Cities Classic (no offense to the Quad cities intended).  Again my point, of which debate seems particularly sparse, did Dr. Mackenzie intend golfers to hit wedges into #15, sandwedges into #18?  Surely it's the equipment - no debate there -
but what is to be done.  It is the REALITY of todays game that golfers hit drives 300+ yards and irons from 260 into the wind.  That will not change.  So leave the course alone and turn it into the springtime pitch and putt or alter the course to defend it.  Is there a correct answer?  From the variety of opinions from the small sample of individuals replying here - perhaps not.

7.  Augusta should not be considered in any decisions considering maintenance for 99.9% of the worlds courses.  It is my opinion that if Augusta wants to groom to perfection that is entirely within their rights and means.  It is not their fault that uninformed greens commitee chairmen around the world demand 'Augusta like' conditioning.  Again, do you fault Augusta or those who attept to follow.  I do not fault Augusta.  I fault the bankers, lawyers and others who no nothing about agronomy who sit on commitees and dictate the undoable.  Augusta's fault - no.

8.  I feel that Augusta 'hurts' golf course architecture in no way, nor does it 'hurt' maintenance.  Does it propigate unachievable expecatations?  Only for those who can not separate their club from one which for all intents and purposes has no budget.  To me not Augusta's fault.  Do you dictate to a club not to be in the best possible condition because other clubs may have commitee men who will expect the same at their club?  I can not.

9.  I do not know Augusta's mission statement if they have one.  Nor what it should be.  I would leave that to the people it matters most to - the members.  


Andrew Perry

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #82 on: November 09, 2001, 07:16:00 PM »
Mike Cirba,
AC is a nickname of mine, sorry to have replied in secret.  I was in no way being sarcastic with my question of people visiting  ANGC, just wondering.  I work at ANGC and love to visit this site to read you guys opionions, many of which I agree with.
AC

Mike_Cirba

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #83 on: November 09, 2001, 07:26:00 PM »
Andrew,

Thank you very much for clarifying.

I would certainly understand and I'm sure others would as well if you felt the need to post anonymously.  In either case, please feel welcome to share in our discussions.

Glad to hear you enjoy the site!    


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #84 on: November 09, 2001, 05:58:00 PM »
TBJ:

Nice to see you decided to stick around and respond to Pat Mucci's questions.

Before long you'll be exchanging private emails for Tommy N.

We can be pretty addictive.


Tim Weiman

TimJ (TBJ)

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #85 on: November 11, 2001, 05:29:00 AM »
Mr. Weiman

I will always answer any questions put to me as honestly as I can and yes, this is a bit addictive.  But I don't think that Mr. Nacarrato and I will be sharing confidences anytime soon.


Patrick_Mucci

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #86 on: November 11, 2001, 07:16:00 PM »
TimJ,

I'm not so sure.

Tommy and I sure got off to a contentious start, much worse than yours, but we've become friends, despite 3,000 miles of Rees Jones and Coore & Crenshaw golf courses between us.

We like and respect one another, but still enjoy a good debate.

Hopefully, you'll share my good luck !


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #87 on: November 11, 2001, 10:02:00 AM »
TBJ:

One of the great things about golf, particularly love for the architectural side, is that it tends to bring people together.

I remember not that long ago being in the bar at Ballybunion and being verbally assaulted by a local member who wanted to know why "Americans treated their President so badly".

My God, I thought, it was a good thing my very Republican mother wasn't there!

In any case, despite our differences, we still shared a very pleasant round together the next day with mutual friends.

Compared to the subjects this gentleman and I discussed, matters of golf architecture are pretty insignificant.  Thus, one really shouldn't get too worked up.

As Pat Mucci suggests, you will probably come to enjoy Tommy for the sincerity of his love for the game, especially golf architecture.

While I question Tommy's tone and language for time to time, it is very important to have people willing to speak openly about golf industry issues.

I'm sure you will agree that political pressures make it very difficult for people in the industry to do so.

Anyway, I'm glad you decided to stick around.  Tell us what you like and don't like.  I'm still pretty early in my golf architecture education as I'm sure most people at this site are.

Tim Weiman