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Mark_Fine

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Whitemarsh Valley CC
« on: March 10, 2003, 07:28:16 AM »
Most of you know, Whitemarsh Valley CC in Philly was the first design of George Thomas.  I haven't played there in a few years and was curious what the group thought about the recent "improvements" Sharon Golf has made to the course??

Thoughts anyone?
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2003, 07:50:34 AM »
Mark;

I don't know that I know the full extent of the 'improvements' that Sharon Golf made to Whitemarsh other than redoing (reshaping) the green-end of #12. In the last few years the club has also been restoring the "look" of the original Thomas bunkering--in-house I believe.

As to how well that original "Thomas" look was restored or replicated with the bunkering I can't say in detail. From looking at it other than very closely it certainly looks a lot better than the bunkering on the course used to look. I don't think a Thomas expert like Geoff Shackelford was all that enamored though, probably feeling it could have been improved upon further.

As for the redo of #12 by Sharon Golf, Mike Cirba posted something about that specifically on here about a year ago and he didn't sound too thrilled about the look of it.

#12 was without question one of George Thomas's really great par 3s! As such one would've hoped it could've been completely left as is. However, I don't really know what problems the club faced on that hole or green-end but if I were to guess it probably was something to do with the fact the hole and particularly the green was so close to the public road on the right.

As such I guess I could understand that possibly something HAD to be done to the green-end but apparently the shaping was pretty excessive in the re-do so as such obviously a lot of the original character and look of the green-end was altered.

The only other thing I know about Whitemarsh Valley is it looks like William Flynn might have done a rework of hole #11. Some think Donald Ross did it but I don't think so.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2003, 07:53:57 AM »
Mark
   The name is Shearon.I believe he is a member of WMVCC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2003, 09:51:48 AM »
Mark, a point of note:

Marion in Marion, Mass. was the first George Thomas designed course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2003, 10:21:00 AM »
Haven't played the course, but I like the placing of "Designed by George Thomas" on the entrance sign.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2003, 02:26:23 PM »
Tommy,
You are right - Whitemarsh was his first 18 hole design!
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2003, 02:36:44 PM »
Thomas's first course, Marion is hilarious--a "got to see' 9 hole course for anyone. If they actually asked young George to build them a 9 hole golf course, I'm convinced young George must have thought they asked him to build them a steeplechase course. Many of the greens have what look like stonewall jumps right in front of them. Young George was always creative, though, because at least he thought to put a gate in the stonewall jumps for the golfers to walk through instead of having to jump over them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2003, 02:39:42 PM »
I know Geoff is not too enamored with what has been done as I have talked with him about it.  We have not gotten into details why.  

One question I have is did the bunkering at Whitemarsh really have that ragged edge "Thomas" look or was that Billy Bell's influence later on?  If you look at the old photos in Geoff's book, The Captain on page 24, you won't see the Thomas style bunkers we usually think of.  

Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2003, 08:08:45 PM »
Quote
 
One question I have is did the bunkering at Whitemarsh really have that ragged edge "Thomas" look or was that Billy Bell's influence later on?  If you look at the old photos in Geoff's book, The Captain on page 24, you won't see the Thomas style bunkers we usually think of.  

Mark

Mark,

I used to play Whitemarsh frequently as a kid (late 70's) as my uncle and some high school teammates were members there. However, I have not played there since high school which is 20+ years ago (ouch that makes me sound older :o). I don't remember it ever having a rugged or ragged look, but again, I probably only played there during a three year period, and I obviously did not appreciate it back then. The holes that are most memorable to me were the holes on the perimeter of the property, including the Par 3's 9 (short) and 12 which is in Geoff's book. I also remember that holes 7 & 8 were on a piece of property accross the street that was leased by the club and owned by Fitz Dixon who at the time was the owner of the 76ers.

It was always a very family oriented club, and I would assume that it still is today. I ran into a friend at Thanksgiving who is still a member there, and I may try to get out this summer with him if time prevents.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2003, 08:36:38 PM »
When I was I kid, they crammed the IVB tour event
onto Whitemarsh Valley. In the scheme of things, how
prestigious was this tournament? I seem to remember
a lot of the big names playing in it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2003, 08:43:05 PM »
The work done by Ed Shearon and his company at Whitemarsh is sort of a mixed bag.  Some holes like 11, 17, and 18 have a really good look that tries to emulate the prototypical Thomas bunkering style as we've grown to know it.  I've also spoken to Geoff S. about it and he is not quite so enamored as others have mentioned, although I'm not sure that Thomas wasn't still in that fledgling architect stage when he did the course, and I doubt it was ever quite a masterpiece, despite several very good holes on cramped property.  

I also know that both Flynn and Ross did additional work there, so it's tough at this point to really decide what true renovation should entail exactly.

However, one huge disappointment to me was the work on the par three 12th hole, which adjoins the highway and which is featured in Geoff's "Golden Age" book on page 91.  I would guess that the club probably faced a number of complaints about balls sailing right of the green onto the busy road, and with liability considerations, decided to build really large, unsightly containment mounds to the right of the green. (The "highway" was a dirt road when the course was built).  

That change may have been unavoidable, but the ones that really were jarring didn't seem to be neccessary.  First, the steep faced bunkers appearing in Geoff's book have been altered into some really overly fussy numbers that diminish the visual impact.  However, what really threw me was what was done to the formerly quick runaway left of the green, where a ball slightly left and missing the green would be propelled far down the hill (25 foot drop off)  away from the target.  On a hole of that length, it really put a premium, in a very natural way, on an accurate tee shot, particularly to back left hole locations.

Shearon's group created a series of terraced "steps" on the left side, which serve to slow and stop a ball before it bounds down the hill.  It looks terribly contrived, and also neuters one of the hole's chief defenses.  

I remember arriving at that hole with some of the gang from here, particularly optimistic after playing the lovely 9th, 10th, and 11th, and with all of us familiar with how the hole used to look, we just sort of paused and stood around dumbfounded for awhile.  Finally, I said, "I don't think Geoff Shack would want to see this."  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2003, 08:48:19 PM »
Craig,

I remember 1 year the IVB became a "mandatory" type of event on the PGA tour where the big names Nicklaus, Trevino ... played the tournament, and I think Jack won it that year. Other than that it was a middle of the road tournament that did not draw well. Back when The US Open used to be played at Merion, I think they had a similar problem to Westchester today in that they could not draw people to a "regular" tournament. I would guess that the size of the property was a problem too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2003, 09:01:08 PM »
Mike Cirba:

I enjoyed playing Whitemarsh on one occasion about twenty years ago and never forgot that fine little par 3, #12. Sorry to hear they had to make any changes. I remember thinking it was a little gem.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

TEPaul

Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2003, 04:50:07 AM »
Whitemarsh is an interesting course in many ways with a number of inherent problems. What happened to the famous #12 was probably the result of the realities of liability concerns today. But some of the original holes are notable. Certainly the short tricky #9. #4 is also one of the super long old Philadelphia driver par 3s of which there were a good number from the old days. The stretch of holes from 3 or 4 through #5 (including the driving range) has some of the most dangerous and damaging potential flooding problems I've ever seen on a golf course and has obviously been a problem from day one.

Many of the other holes are pretty good. #18 was well respected in the old days and #16 is a very interesting hill hole requiring more club in relation to the yardage than most imagine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2003, 08:31:04 AM »
I just came across this discussion.  I really enjoyed my day at Whitemarsh.  The membership have created a a nice atmosphere and they have (except for the 12th hole) respected the George Thomas heritage.

The routing over the rather small property really takes advantage of the natural undulations of the land.  The variety in the holes, especially in the par 3's is quite evident. THere are many uphill and downhill shots from different angles that certainly require shotmaking skills. This is perhaps the most evident overall impression of the course. Tom Paul, I wonder if the use of the undulations in the property combined with good bunkering schemes are the reason for the tricky club selections on 16 and other holes as well?  

When we got to the long par 3 4th hole, I felt like I knew it from my friend Linc Roden's descriptions of his tournament play there in the late 40's and early 50's.  What a hole even with today's technology! Also, what a contrast to the drop shot 9th. No wonder Linc enjoys this course. The 12th is almost unrecognizable from the photo in Geoff's book and Mike forgot to mention all the earth moving on the RIGHT side to create (containment) mounding bordering the road.

Whitemarsh isn't going to make anyones best XXX lists but its attributes are easy to recognize and it sure is a fun and testing place to play.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2003, 01:01:05 PM »
Craig:
The old IVB Tournament was pretty big in the mid and late 70's.  At one time, I believe, it had the largest purse on tour.  I played in the Pro-Am twice and the names were pretty big.  Nicklaus, Trevino, Wadkins, Graham, etc.
I think it disappeared when the Open went to Merion in 1981.
Best,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Hillsideb52

Re: Whitemarsh Valley CC
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2003, 10:06:44 AM »
Ed Shearon of "Shearon Design" is a member of Whitemarsh Valley.

I caddied there from 1981 to 1984 and then worked the Greens Crew in 1985.  I was in high school then.  One of things that I remember hearing was that the club was suffering under a massive debtload as a result of building the new clubhouse.  As a result, the maintenance of the course was on the low side i.e. we had a skeleton crew doing all the work. I also think some of the superintendents at that time were not of the quality that Whitemarsh should have had.

I have been back to play on numerous occassions in the last 10 years and most of the changes have been good.  I have not seen what they did on #12 but from the description it does not sound good.  #12 was a "do or die" par 3 that was of fair length - 167 from the men's tees.

One of the really big changes was on #13.  That hole was a dead straight par 4 down the hill up until the early 80s.  The walk from the 12th green to the 13th tee was close to 100 yards.  It is now about 20-30 yards.  By selling the land and allowing development of the apartment complex, Whitemarsh reduced their debtload.  That enabled them to embark on the work that they have done most of which was restoration from what I can tell.

I really enjoyed the course in my youth and enjoy it as an adult.  Fun course to play.  Nice facilities and the membership is a group of good people.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »