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THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2004, 10:57:42 AM »
Rich - our jibes crossed in cyberspace.

Your scenario sucks.
But then so does mine.

The only point here is that examples can be given which highlight the weaknesses of BOTH systems.

And I have made a major concession today, which you seem to have glossed over... you should be gloating in triumph.. read again, you'll find it.  I've now said it twice.

 ;D

TH

ps - I must say I LOVED your description of my game and that scenario.   ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: February 26, 2004, 10:59:08 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2004, 11:00:50 AM »
Rich Goodale is right again. The old Monthly Medal gives a taste of golf as it is meant to be played, by the rules and without any bulls**t. No Mulligans, no preferred lies, no gimmees and fourteen clubs in the bag.

I would hazard a guess that the majority of rounds played in the US start with Mulligans being played. Gosh, I use them myself from time to time, however, what does it say about the accuracy of the posting?

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2004, 11:04:43 AM »
Bob:

But such is the reality of US golf.  Just how are you going to get that to change, as much as it does suck?

Changing to a monthly medal handicap system won't do it... and SO many people who do want handicaps, and are used to having them, never play a monthly medal.... or any medal....

BTW, one posts what one feels right about.  Personally if a round includes too many liberties, I don't post it, because it wasn't a true round of golf.  Happens all the time given the reality of my golf world...

TH


JohnV

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2004, 11:13:16 AM »
Tom

As for the merits of the various system, listen to James (JJSE).  It's hysterical how many "plus" players under USGA hanidcapping rules can play to "plus" only if they mark their own cards and pretend that they make all putts within 5 feet.  While it used to be different and there are exceptions, it is shameful how poorly most US amateurs players play when they come over here for significant competitions.

I guess Americans aren't all sandbaggers then. ;)

Vanity handicaps are almost as big a problem as sandbaggers.  But, it should also be pointed out that the way the USGA Handicap System works you should only be shooting your handicap about 25% of the time.  That is unless you are a very consistent yipper as Mr. Halmi became last summer.

ForkaB

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2004, 11:15:58 AM »
Toms (H amd P)

You are being silly.

How do you KNOW that US golfers are so averse to posting scores under the Rule of Golf?  Well, you don't.

Since you don't, why not try it?  Just say that to get a "Tournament" handicap you need to post at least 3 rounds/year, signed and attested to, and that your "T" Hanidcap will be based on those rounds, and ONLY those rounds.

No havee "T" handicap, no playee in USGA or other "elite" competitions.

For the rest of the golfing world, use whatever handicap you like and/or your playing partners will accept, or as Tom H implies, just one that you "feel right about."

Well, Huckster, when we next play, I think I'll "feel right about" a 15 or so.  You and Tom Paul and all the might of the USGA will be behind me.  The beauty of it is that you cannot match my claim, for to do so will sully your positon as a goolf course rater.  Can't have any "15's" telling us what's right or wrong about the world of golf, can we? ;)

JohnV

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2004, 11:16:26 AM »
James, someone based in America will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked GHIN = take your best 10 scores from your last 20 rounds, adjusted for slope and course rating, and average the results. I've always thought that the British system measured your ability and the American system your potential, if that makes sense.

That's it in a nutshell.  There is a bit of additional math in the adjustment that seems to be too tough for Goodale but easy enough for my 8-year old daughter, but you captured the essence of it.   ;)

TH

Finally, multiply the result by .96.  This is to give the better golfer a slight edge.  Truncate the result after the 10ths digit (no rounding)

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2004, 11:18:32 AM »
Tom, that's the point exactly, those people need to play a monthly Medal! The more that people play organized golf the more closely we can police their handicap and their ettiquette. People can always figure out how many strokes to get from their friends, it's not that complicated. Giving someone a handicap based on casual play so he can take some strangers money once or twice a year is like providing free bullets to the criminal element.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

ForkaB

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2004, 11:24:07 AM »
Pete

Very well said!

Rich

PS--it also gives ammunition to the "plus 5" handicaps that James mentions who can't break 85 on The Old Course with a card and pencil in their hand.

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2004, 11:29:24 AM »
Richard, Richard, Richard:

You so miss the point, as you always have... and talk about taking my words out of context... oh well, I'll let you slide there, as it seems you'll do anything to somehow win this argument in theory that you know you have no chance of winning in practicality.  In any case, we really need not argue this again... talk about a subject we've beaten to death many times already!

So when I get to Aberdour under my scenario, you have to give me 15 and 12 and whatever else for the many months it takes for me to finally do decent in a medal, for to not do so would be to sully your claim that all is right in the CONGU world!  Meanwhile in the US in the exact same scenario, I'm back down to 5 and we play even.  Only the most naive would not recognize this as a superior result, in this example.

But you see, I am assuming both of us are honorable golfers.  If you wish to blantatly cheat and sandbag me, then yes, there is nothing I can do.

I know you'd never do that.   ;)

And Pete, you are right - more people do need to play a montly medal.  But please, the world remains far from perfect - do you honestly think this is going to happen?

TH

ps - courses are still going to need ratings of some sort or another under whatever system that is used... is there not such a thing as SSS?  So this has nothing to do with self-interest for my job I love so much...even if I do feel completely secure in such job.

Brian_Gracely

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2004, 11:36:06 AM »
Brain, don't forget that if your match ends on 13, it's equally likely you were playing out of your mind and pounded your opponent.  It can work both ways.


Shivas,

That's what concerns me.  At least on courses I've played before, I'm a pretty darn good 13 hole player and would probably have a handicap somewhere near scratch if I post all of those scores + par & handicap for the remainder.  My problem is that somewhere around 13 green, 14 tee, 14 green I start that wondering thought pattern of "gee, this might turn out to be a decent round...let's be a complete dumb-ass and start adding up your score or thinking ahead".  Hence the reason my handicap stays in single-digits but never sniffs scratch.  

ForkaB

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2004, 11:38:39 AM »
Tom

I never take strokes in friendly games unless under the duress of a less forgiving partner.  I only give stokes in such games on the pleading of the begging player.  If and when we ever meet again we shall play "off the sticks," as they say, regardless of what our handicaps are, or what you "feel right about" on the day. ;)

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2004, 11:43:04 AM »
Richard:

Then your handicap is to be used whenever it feels right to you.  I get it now.  Thanks for the clarification.  Seems we play the same way after all.

 ;D

TH

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2004, 11:43:52 AM »
Tom, even if I take your criticisms at face value, ultimately your scenario only attacks the CONGU system from the perspective of a golfer just entering the system, with a brand-new handicap. Isn't that a bit myopic?

ForkaB

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2004, 11:48:24 AM »
Darren

You are WOEFULLY wrong!

Tom (no matter which Tom, choose any of them ;)) is much more than "a bit" myopic.........

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2004, 11:50:18 AM »
Darren:

And the scenarios you and Goodale have given aren't myopic?  Please.

In any case, given the same thing could very easily happen to ANYONE entering the system, transferring from somewhere else, getting very good at the game but not translating it to tournament play the very few times that happens... I find it a valid criticism.

So ours changes too easily, yours too infrequently.  There should be a happy medium.  In any case, as I've said several times yours is the better... it's just never gonna work here, and is not without flaws.  That's all I meant to say.

TH

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2004, 12:40:25 PM »
First of all, I should point out that I'm almost positive that I wasn't given an official handicap at Machrihanish until I recorded THREE medal scores, not just one. Not perfect, but certainly fairer than one.

Secondly, Huckleberry, my point was that the CONGU system evens out over time - once you're fully ingratiated into the system, it's much fairer. (Oh, and by the way: what happens when one enters the GHIN system for the first time? Presumably you can't have a handicap at all until you record 10 rounds - either that, or you have a handicap based upon 1-9 rounds which is subject to the same small sample size problem which seems to be your primary complaint about CONGU.) The scenario I described with my father is an extreme example of something which happens to EVERY golfer in the GHIN system: your handicap is a product of your most recent 20 rounds, which the rules of standard deviation in small sample sizes will tell you are subject to subject to extreme variation, and does not take into account your entire golfing history.

Thirdly, I know that the CONGU system will never supercede GHIN in America in my lifetime...but isn't this whole thread come right down to a "mine's bigger/better than yours is" sort of argument? ;)

Cheers,
Darren

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2004, 12:43:16 PM »
If this argument has now been reduced to "it's never going to work in the U.S." or "it will work in the U.S.," put me down on the side of "it will work."

Or, wishfully thinking, it could, anyway.

If I aspire to play in USGA events, or state Am events, or high-end weekend tournaments in my area, I know I need a handicap either to gain admission to the event, or to be flighted. My handicap, now, is basically what I tell them it is. Sure, the GHIN system calculates my handicap based on the scores I post, but given the scenario JohnV described in his opening post, there's already enough leeway and interpretation inherent in the system for a dishonest golfer to drive an EZ-Go through it.

If I have designs on either getting into a tournament restricted to lower handicaps, or cleaning up in the country club calcutta, I can Halmi my way to just about any number I want to use in a matter of weeks.

But if events that required handicaps required me to gain that handicap by playing in a monthly medal -- or some other form of stroke play event that used the rules of golf rather than gimmes, mulligans, breakfast balls, inside the leather and bump it till you like it -- that's what I'd do.

That's what thousands, if not millions, of U.S. tournament players would do, if required to do so.

They'd also play a tournament ball. :)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2004, 12:45:07 PM by Rick Shefchik »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2004, 12:48:42 PM »
Darren:

Gee, I hope not.  I've only admitted yours is bigger at least three times now.  ;D

It's just not perfect.

Yours works there, ours works here.  Why this isn't good enough for you CONGUISTS remains the mystery to me.

Conguently yours,

TH
« Last Edit: February 26, 2004, 12:48:59 PM by Tom Huckaby »

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2004, 12:53:35 PM »
Rick:

That would work for you, and me, and dare I say Tom Paul - because all of us would care enough to go to the trouble of finding monthly events in order to maintain our handicaps, because it's worth it to us to have such for other competitive purposes.

BUT...

it wouldn't work at all for the millions of US golfers who could care less about these events, but yet wish to have a handicap, for other purposes...

and...

it also could be abused SO easily, it doesn't make for much improvement.  See my Goodale/Aberdour example for how it could be done.  All it takes is one bad round and one's handicap is set for a LONG time... to be used all over the place until it changes...

Nope, never gonna work here.  The culture is such that these medal play events are too infrequent, not cared about, and too many people want a handicap anyway.

TH

ps - I am almost ready to give up on this again, as I keep threatening...  ;)

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2004, 01:03:51 PM »
Tom -- Before you give up, I'd like to make it clear that I'm proposing such a handicap system for tournament players (you, me, Tom Paul, Robert Halmi, etc.), not for guys playing a casual betting game. As Rich implied, whether I give you strokes or you give me strokes ought to be up to you and me, based on what we know about each others' games. If we know nothing about each others' games, I think we're kind of nuts to be betting any significant amount of money based on the handicaps we carry under the current system.

Yeah, I'm talking about a two-tiered system -- but I don't care about somebody's handicap outside of the tournaments I play in, because I rarely play for money, and when I do, it's with people I know.

Never going to happen? You're probably right -- but the tournaments that rely on the current handicap system could make this happen. Give us a few more Pebble Beach pro-am results like this one, and resistence might just begin to crumble...
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2004, 01:06:28 PM »
Rick:

That makes sense to me.

But still, the change is never going to happen, wishfully, wistfully, woefully or otherwise.

And the nightmare of administering a two-tier system... ugh... I don't want to go down that road.

TH

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2004, 01:09:09 PM »
Tom, please explain to me why exactly all those millions of other US golfers need a handicap?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2004, 01:12:43 PM »
I can Halmi my way to just about any number I want to use in a matter of weeks.

To Halmi, or not to Halmi: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The birdies and eagles of outrageous good fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of sandbaggers,
And by opposing end them?

Somebody else'll have to take it from there. I have "work" (!?) to do.

Haven't read this thread -- but I'm sure Rick's right. He almost always is.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2004, 01:14:47 PM »
Pete:

Vanity.
Something to put on the form when they join a club.
Something to put on the form when they play in charity or other informal events.
Comparison with their friends.
Because someone told them they're not a real golfer unless they have a handicap.

All are reasons MANY people get handicaps, while never playing in a true medal event, and never caring to.

Hey, I hate being cynical.  Maybe it would work, after a long painful change.  But the change isn't gonna happen either, so why even contemplate it?

TH


JohnV

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2004, 01:15:00 PM »
If I have designs on either getting into a tournament restricted to lower handicaps ... I can Halmi my way to just about any number I want to use in a matter of weeks.

Which is why the USGA sends out a few hundred love letters to those who don't come within a set amount of the course rating.  These letters say that you can't play again until you can prove you are better than your score indicated.  We, in the WPGA, also have a statement on our entrys saying we can deny entry to those who play poorly.

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