News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jim_Michaels

Cabo San Lucas
« on: February 14, 2004, 05:54:55 PM »
Will be there in a few weeks. Any west coast folks have particular favorites? I know that the most favored architects of GCA.com haven't made it there yet, but hasn't Nicklaus done some of his best recent work in Baja? If I have only two rounds to play, any recommendations on where to play them? El Dorado by Jack? Weiskopf's Desert Course? I presume I must play Nicklaus' Ocean Course, if I can.

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2004, 06:44:27 PM »
Jim:

Will be there the end of next week.  Will be able to tell you better when I return.

Best,
Dave

McCloskey

Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2004, 07:08:31 PM »
Mr. Michaels
I envy you going to my favorite vacation spot.
Greatest weather anywhere.
It is snowing hear in Dallas and I'll bet it is 80 without a cloud in the sky in Cabo.
Definitely play Cabo del Sol (Ocean only) it is tremendous
Also, ElDorado.    there is a rumor that the ocean holes are going to be eliminated in the near future, so I would play it before the changes are made.   Another of my most favorite golf courses.
I sure wish I was going down myself.   Maybe soon I hope!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2004, 07:54:03 AM »
I would second McCloskey's two recommendations, in the same order.  Several people whom I respect prefer Eldorado, but I thought the two ponds on the inland side took points away from it.

We still have a course in planning there, straight up that steep hill above the Weiskopf course at Cabo del Sol.  But the latest word is that they won't be ready to build it until 2006.  Which is fine, because I'm pretty busy until then anyway.

Jim_Michaels

Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2004, 10:46:30 AM »
Thanks, everybody. I will try for Ocean and El Dorado.

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2004, 10:24:25 AM »
Jim,

You will have a great time in Cabo, I was there last June and cannot wait to return.  The Ocean course at Cabo del Sol is a must play, a terrific mix of desert and seaside golf.  It's my favorite Nicklaus course that I've played by a long shot, just one great hole after another.  I also played Querencia, a private Fazio course that a few hotels have arranged privileges with.  It's a very good course set amidst the hills.  There are some major elevation changes and interesting holes but I would recommend El Dorado above it.  I didn't get to play El Dorado but saw some of the course and it looks terrific.  It really appears that Jack did some of his best work in Cabo.

Also, I don't know where you are staying, but try to make it one night for dinner at Las Ventanas al Paraiso.  A beautiful setting and incredible food, you will not regret it.

THuckaby2

Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2004, 10:31:40 AM »
Interesting... I'd agree that if there is time for only two rounds, those should be played at Cabo del Sol - Ocean and Eldorado, but I'm curious why no love for the Weiskopf (Desert) course at CdeS?  I enjoyed that immensely and found it damn close to equal to the Ocean course, only losing because of the spectacular end to Ocean... lots of strategic options, firm and fast, incredible greens - more on Desert than Ocean overall...


David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2004, 11:06:54 AM »
Add me to the list that reccomends Cabo Del Sol Ocean and then El Dorado.  If you have private club access, eliminate El Dorado and play Querrencia (Fazio's private effort).  El Dorado has 12 very strong holes, but six weak ones.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

McCloskey

Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2004, 10:06:46 PM »
David Wigler
I would be interested in knowing what 6 holes at ElDorado you consider weak.   I realize we all see golf holes differently and I would like to know hear your reasons for your opinion.
Thank you.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2004, 10:47:05 PM »
Querencia, which wasn't open when I visited Cabo, is only available to guests of certain hotels(Esperanza and some others) and the charge is about $350. The Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol is one of my favorite courses. I wish I could be there now!
Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2004, 09:17:41 AM »
The prices depend on the time of year that you are there.  I played Querencia last June and it was only $150.  There was no one there, I had the whole course to myself, played in about 2.5 hours.  I know that Las Ventanas and Esperanza both offer access to it.  I'm glad I played it once, but if only playing 2 or 3 courses, I'd go with Cabo del Sol Ocean, El Dorado, and perhaps Cabo del Sol Desert.

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2004, 09:33:57 AM »
David Wigler
I would be interested in knowing what 6 holes at ElDorado you consider weak.   I realize we all see golf holes differently and I would like to know hear your reasons for your opinion.
Thank you.

McCloskey,

I wrote an article for a local magazine reviewing both courses at Cabo Del Sol, Querencia, Pamilla and El Dorado.  I'll post my review of El Dorado below.  Please reply as I'll be curious if you agree.  (One last note - This is my submitted version, so it has not been proofread and my spelling and grammer corrected).

"The last day of our trip brought a visit to El Dorado.  This is another Jack Nicklaus entry into the Los Cabos golf scene and most consider it the second best public course in the area.  The golf course really started for me on Hole #5.  #5 is a 560-yard par 5 with 20’ of elevation to a split fairway landing area.  Nicklaus built a runway on the left side for golfers who would risk the left fairway bunker off the tee.  The right side of the fairway is flat and safe but insures that the hole will require three shots.  A perfect drive down the left runs out fifty extra yards and allows for a two-shot hole.  The first of the courses lakes separate the two fairways and the green is a peninsula built into the lake.  #7 is another fantastic par five of 540 yards.  50’ of elevation take this course from the desert to the edge of the beach.  Nine bunkers line the tee shot landing area.  The elevation allows this hole to be had in two, but drop your tee shot into the bunker and six is going to be a good score.  #8 and #9 are both awesome.  #8 is a 175-yard par three with a blind left side due to the cliffs and an elevated bunker and the ocean on the right.  It is your first glimpse of the holes in Los Cabos that are closest to the water.  #9 is a long par four where the back tee is built into the beach.  The split fairway makes this a very challenging way to finish the nine.  #12 is an very good rendition of a Cape Hole.  The fairway is lateral right to the tee box and a perfect tee shot will carry 200 yards of water and 40 yards of sand to catch the prefered landing area 120 yards from the green.   The green is cut back against the pond.  This is another fine example of how good Nicklaus’s parkland holes are.  #16, #17 and # 18 are unbelievable golf holes.  #16 is a 520-yard par five that requires a long tee shot over an arroyo to a landing area defined by four bunkers.  The second shot requires a lot of thought.  The landing area really pinches in at 140 yards from the green.  The ocean sits behind the green ready to eat up a long approach.  Is it better to risk the tight fairway for an easy third shot or hit a safe second and then bang a 150-yard approach to the green?  #17 and #18 are built on the beach.  The holes are truly breathtaking.  The surf almost hits the tee box in high tide.  Most seaside links holes are played on cliffs overlooking the ocean like Pebble Beach.  Actually hitting shots from the beach is really cool.

The course has three distinct feels to it.  Holes #7, #8, #9, #16, #17, and #18 are links style golf holes and good tributes to the windswept home of golf (Except that the weather is much better in Cabo).  Several of the holes are literally built into the sand dunes bordering the ocean.  Holes #5, #6, #11, #13 and #14 are parkland holes reminiscent of some of the better work in Northern Michigan.  Man-made water hazards and well-defined bunkering frame them.  The remaining seven holes are desert golf holes.  The dominant design feature in these seven is the drop into desert washes and arroyos.  These holes feel similar to Nicklaus’s work at Desert Mountain or Superstition Mountain in Scottsdale.  It is very rare to see an architect try to incorporate all three design philosophies into one golf course.  This interesting approach has varying degrees of success.  The result is that the course feels less like an entire body of work and more like a collection of golf holes.  That written, Nicklaus’s parkland and links holes include some masterpieces and the back nine, as a whole, may be the best nine-hole stretch of golf in Los Cabos.  The desert holes are the weakness of the course, as they are too similar to other work and what differentiate this course from a lock top 100 course in the world to simply a very good golf course and a must see on any visit to Los Cabos."
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

McCloskey

Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2004, 12:35:30 PM »
 ;DWigler
Thanks for posting your article on ElDorado.  I always find it interesting on how different people view different courses.   That is what makes golf course discussion boards the most intriguing to me.
I definitely agree with your appreciation of the ocean/dune holes 7,8,9 and 16,17,18.   I thought the routing was ingenious to finish both nines on the ocean side of the highway basically playing in opposing directions, which can be factor with the wind direction changes from morning and afternoon.
I am not sure I understand the differentiation you made on the "parkland" holes in he valleys across the highway.   They all had he same feel to me.  It seemed obvious that the designers had major wash areas to incorporate into the course design to move water through the valleys.  I know it doesn't rain very often in Cabo, but when it does two or three times a year, it is a flash flood type situation.   So your comments about the course looking like DM or SM in Scottdale, was a little unclear to me.   Afterall, Cabo is a desert climate with desert plantings all the way to the ocean.   That is one of the things that appeals to me, is that the desert goes all the way to the ocean.
I also agree that the back nine is very strong, but I like holes that you didn't mention. lol.   My favorite  par fours are #10
#11 and #12.   You mentioned #12 as the cape hole, but I actually think that is #11.  Nice hole.   But 10 and 12 are two very strong par fours with two of the more interesting greens on the course.   Tough holes, but I like strong par 4's.
My thoughts on the weaker holes, and I only say that relative to the other holes, would be, on the back, #14 and #15.   They are nice holes but not as interesting as the others on the back to me.
On the front nine, I actually liked the opening two holes "to get the round going without major demand".   #3 was a difficult, but interesting Par 3.   What a green!
#4 is a short, strategic off the tee, birdie hole.   Then I agree with your assessment of the remaining holes on the front nine.  My two favorite holes on the course are #7 and #9.   #16 and #13 are not far behind.  Especially #13 from the far right back tee.   You may not have played or even seen tha tee.  Not many know it is there.   But, since I play there quite a bit, the project manager showed it to me.   It makes #13 dogleg more to the right and puts quite a premium on the drive to play close to or over that large bunker on the right corner of the dogleg.   I do like that little green tucked into the rocks, also.
Anyway, you can tell that I like the golf course.   I would rate it higher than you do and not far, at all, behind whatever Cabo del Sol is rated.   I think you liked most it anyway, from what I could tell from your article.   You didn't however, tell me which 6 holes you thought were weak.   So, by elimination, I am assuming it was 1,2,3,4, 10,12.  How did I assume?   Thanks for showing me your article.
Did you know, btw, that the owner is making plans to eliminate holes 8,9 and 18 to put in condos on the beach?  This breaks my heart.   I am not sure how Nicklaus is going to reroute 3 new holes.   This can't be good for the course though. ???


David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2004, 01:52:13 PM »
McClosky (I hate starting a post like that.  I fell like I am a sargent in an old TV cop show),

Check your instant messages

BTW, I am going to be in Los Cabos the first week of May.  Any chance you are there?
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2004, 02:20:59 PM »
Did you know, btw, that the owner is making plans to eliminate holes 8,9 and 18 to put in condos on the beach?  This breaks my heart.

Can't we ship a few radical environmentalists down there -- all expenses paid -- and get that plan shot down?

That sure will break the heart of the golf course.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2004, 02:29:19 PM »
Dan,  Environmentalists love Condo's just not golf courses  ???

My favorite Brad Klein comment ever "You see a lot more dead deer on the highway to the course than on the course."  Somehow environementalists never get this.  For what it is worth, El Dorado losing those holes will be tragic as they are that good.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Jim_Michaels

Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2004, 03:50:00 PM »
Thanks to all for the very interesting information. Sounds like Querencia might be the play, except for the future NLE status of parts of El Dorado. I am now quite interested to see the transitions on E.D. as well.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2004, 04:22:08 PM »
Jim Michaels --

Don't miss El Dorado.

Those holes on the Sea-side side are great holes. If they're to be lost, you'll want to have played them.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jim_Michaels

Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2004, 05:07:55 PM »
Thanks, Dan.  It's booked.   I'll try to post a few photos when I get back.

THuckaby2

Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2004, 05:13:06 PM »
Jim - make sure and stay for the free tacos at El Dorado.. served under a thatched hut just across from the proshop... view of the sea, grab a beer to go with them, voila - Mexico's version of Ben's Porch at Sand Hills.  Not that things outside of golf course architecture matter, but well... things outside of golf course architecture do matter.  ;D

Oh, one more thing:  not sure what kinda tees you like to play, but MAKE SURE and play the very tips on #17 at Cabo del Sol - Ocean.  You have to look hard to find them - they're down a little path, through the rocks - but the view from there is just stunning, and WAY better than any of the other tees, which kind of straddle the ocean rather than go over it.  Make sure and look behind you also - one of the world's greatest on-ocean villas is there to see.

God I love Cabo.  Have a great time and hell yes, bring us back some pics.

TH

McCloskey

Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2004, 02:10:14 PM »
Mr.Huckaby
If I am not mistaken, aren't the tacos (Rossie's fish, meat, and shrimp) served under the palapa at Cabo del Sol (ocean) course rather than at ElDorado.   Maybe ElDorado starting serving them also, but Cabo del Sol had done that for a long
time.   The best mexican tacos I have ever eaten, without question!   Oh, how I wish I was there right now!

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2004, 02:14:19 PM »
Tom,

McClosky is right and I did not catch it.  Cabos Del Sol had the taco's.  El Dorado did not give anyhting away for free!!
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

THuckaby2

Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2004, 02:19:13 PM »
WHOOPS!

Damn you'd figure that something like this I would get correct given it means a lot more to me than most.   But you guys are right - it's Cabo del Sol with the tacos, and damn they were good!  McCloskey - you think YOU wish you were there right now?

 ;D ;D

TH

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2004, 10:00:56 AM »
Cabo del Sol does very well with the complimentary items.  They only give you the free tacos but I was also give one of their great (heavy duty) yardage books in a pull string bad, a golf towell, and also a nice Cabo del Sol iron bag tag thingie.  

As Tom recommeded, definitely play the back tee on #17, it is literally right out in the rocks on the water.  It's an incredible view from back there.  


Jim_Michaels

Re:Cabo San Lucas
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2004, 06:38:08 PM »
Thanks to all for the advice. The tacos at cabo del sol were great! I liked El Dorado very much. The oceanside holes might be better than the oceanside holes at cabo del sol. There is definitely some weird personality shifting going on throughout the course. Some of that is due the the enormous cart rides between holes.  Sandy Tatum might consider this course the home of cartball, it is utterly unwalkable, not because of the terrain of the holes, but between the holes.  Clearly a very enjoyable course overall and well worth playing.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back