[scratch]

Ladies and gentlemen,

I understand that Long Island, New York contains many of the better courses in the U.S.  What makes Shinnecock a better course than Bethpage Black?  Is it in fact no better? Has the renovation been a help or hinderance?

[Richard Cabeza]

Shinnecock is better because of one major reason...





-Dick-

[scratch]

Ok - understood!!!!

Can you expand on that though - I am unfamiliar with both courses other than the tv telecast at the US Open

[Mike_Cirba]

Shinnecock is a better course than Bethpage Black largely because of factors that are site specific, along with the fact that Shinnecock is almost a bullet-proof, unassailable design from beginning to end.

The fact is, it exists on land that proximates linksland in many respects, is wide open to the wind, and the combination of strategically placed bunkering and firm, devilish greens make it more of a pure shotmakers course than Bethpage.  

It also has probably the best par three I've seen, the 11th.  It's about 160 yards of pure fear.  

While Bethpage is a wonderful course, the emphasis there on length over creativity as a test of golf is ultimately wearing.  It would be hard to ever get tired of playing Shinnecock, no matter one's personal deficiencies.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Here is an article on Shinnecock's work ( you need to cut and paste this entire link):

http://www.newsday.com/sports/golf/ny-shinnecock1228,0,5640686.story?coll=ny-golf-utility

Rees Jones did a great RENOVATION job at Bethpage given his guidelines and budget from the USGA.

Two great couses with two completely different experiences roughly 50 miles apart. As Mike said above Shinnecock is on a better site and has more interesting greens, at least for my taste. Just don't try to drive to either course on a Friday night in the summer.

111 days till Shinnecock, here is some historical perspective:
http://www.usga.org/press/2003/shinnecock_history.html

[GeoffreyC]

First Mr. Cabenza, you are a fool.

The differences between the two are not as large as might first appear. The Bethpage site is a fantastic one and even the flat terrain was used on holes 10-12 to create some of the best holes on the course. The Bethpage property is undulating, sand based and probably had more dunes and wasteland then the original Shinnecock property.

In my mind, the things they share are amazing routings that utilize the undulations.  Amazing bunkering where the current edge might go to Bethpage but the original aerials show Shinnecock being quite a bit more dramatic and perhaps holding the edge. They share some of the absolute greatest uphill shots in golf.  At Bethpage you have the short uphill approach to #2, the dramatic uphill approaches to #'s 5 and 15!!!!. At Shinnecock you have #'s 9 and 10.

Where Shinnecock has major advantages are

1- in the par 3's.  The 11th is among the absolute greatest 3's in golf and to go with it are a bulletproof set of 3 others.  The 2nd is a wonderfula long 3, the 7th perhaps the most difficult redan ever and the 17th a challenging mid-length hole.  At Bethpage, the 17th is world class but #'s 3, 8 and 14 lag behind.  Tillinghast built better 3's at many of his other designs.

2- THE GREENS! Simply put, Bethpage has some really dull greens.  These include #'s 1,2,3,5,6,7,9,10,13.
Shinnecock wins the day here bigtime although greens like #'s 15, 17, and even 11 at Bethpage are teriffic.  If Bethpage had a set that were all like these and especially at the end of a great short 4 par like #2 its rankings would be up in the top 10.

3- Another short hole akin to #2 at Bethpage would help with its variety and add to the enjoyment of the round and the strategic choices of the player.  Shinnecock wins on this point as well.

4- Shinnecock has more varied weather and specifically WIND.  

Bethpage has the possibilities to join SHinnecock among the worlds absolute best but it falls a bit short (In my opinion).  Hope this helps.

[GeoffreyC]

Mr. Cirba-  

Would you agree that the creativity in playing Shinnecock lies mostly around the greens?

Give the unenviable chore of playing either on a very regular basis   they both wear you down with their difficulty length and shotmaking requirements. I think both of us would rather just go to NGLA.  Yes?  

[Mike_Cirba]

Mr. Childs; (so formal this morning, aren't we Geoffrey?)  

I would heartily concur on all points, although I didn't find the length of Shinnecock to be quite as browbeating and morale-sucking as it is at Bethpage.  

[TEPaul]

One interesting fact of Shinnecock's greens is they very well may not be the sizes they were designed and constructed to be. It's often hard to tell with greens like Shinnecock's simply because they flow out into their surrounds so seamlessly. It appears the club was not exactly aware of what the shrinkage might be on their greens, although according to the superintendent that may be debatable. But we do know that Flynn's green drawings were to exact scale and it occurs to me if they'd been able to analyze those drawings perhaps a year or two earlier they may have had the time to expand any or all of them back to the way they were designed and constructed.

Would that have made a difference in the upcoming Open? I don't really know because I never got a chance to analyze exacty how the original greenspaces on the perimeters may have flowed out contour-wise over into their surrounds!

As a interesting sidebar---when we met with the club with Flynn's original drawings they did say the one thing they did not want in preparation for the 2004 Open was one of those so-called "Open Doctors".

[Mike_Cirba]

As a interesting sidebar---when we met with the club with Flynn's original drawings they did say the one thing they did not want in preparation for the 2004 Open was one of those so-called "Open Doctors".

Hallelujah to that, Tom.  On the downside, it's been disappointing to see the fairways put on the Adkins diet.  

[GeoffreyC]

Mike

That was only to distinguish your reply from Mr. Sweeney's.

Too many Mike's around here.

[TEPaul]

"Hallelujah to that, Tom.  On the downside, it's been disappointing to see the fairways put on the Adkins diet."

MikeC:

I only said they mentioned they didn't want an "Open Doctor", I didn't say they said they didn't want the USGA too!    

[Matt_Ward]

Without repeating all of the arguments let me say I am a mega fan of both courses -- I do believe that SH is the finest golf course in the USA and if the greens at BB were equal to SH I would opt for the Black, but alas that is not the case.

The terrain both sites occupy are first rate no doubt. The walking tour you get at the Black from the 1st hole through the enormous site is truly an experience.

The great strength of BB is that you must drive the ball with uncanny skill -- both in length and accuracy. The weakness stems from having roughly 10 holes or thereabouts with greens that are fairly routine -- even pedestrian. Give BB the strength of greens one finds at Winged Foot / West and you would have a course of superhuman dimensions.

One last thing -- Rees Jones did a superb job in bringing back to life so much of what had been allowed to die at BB. Is it the perfect updating of the course? I don't if anything can be perfect but the majesty of the Black is too often tied to length and difficulty -- I believe such a characterization unfairly limits the understanding of what the Black possesses.

Clearly, the totality of the two courses is among the best in the USA. I would not find it hard at all to be "forced" to play these two stellar layouts for the rest of my days.

[Bruceski]

Geoffrey, are the Black's par 3's really weak? They do provide variety:

3rd: flat 210 yds, requiring slight draw
8th: downhill 220 yds, with back to front sloping green
14th: short, 165 yds, with back to front green and intimidating front bunker
17th: slightly uphill 220 yds, small green, immense bunkering, intimidating as all hell...

[GeoffreyC]

Bruce- nice to see you back here.

Relative to Shinnecock the 3 pars at BB are weaker.

Relative to some other Tillinghast courses the set as a whole are weaker.  I refer to both courses at WF and SFGC.  #17 at BB is one of my all time favorite holes.  It is world class.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scratch,

Both courses are fabulous.

One is very public, the other very private.

I wonder, if no trees surrounded BPB and it was the beneficiary of the same WINDS that sweep Shinnecock, how it would be viewed.

Both courses shouldn't be viewed solely in the context of their US Open length.

That length has caused a morphing of the par 3's into holes requiring similar shots.

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat, You wrote, "I wonder, if no trees surrounded BPB and it was the beneficiary of the same WINDS that sweep Shinnecock, how it would be viewed."

Imagine it with the more than 9,000+ trees that were removed prior to the Open. It amazes me that you can remove that many trees from a golf course and have it seem to barely have made a dent.

Whether the Black is the equal or not to Shinnecock, for me what separates it from almost every other course is the passion it inspires in those who play it.

This is more than just those crazies who sleep overnight to tee it up on a Saturday (something I have done since 1969), it is how you feel walking up the second fairway, having left the world behind. The course envelops you in it's grip, carrying you from one hole to the next, each one completely different from and belonging to the ground it sits on.

As wonderful as Shinnecock is, and as difficult as it is to admit it is a better all around course than the Black, I can't imagine one spot on Shinnecock where you can experience the awe you feel as you look through the trees from the third green and see that magnificent fairway raising plateau after plateau, bunkers after bunkers til, far off in the distance, you gat a glimpse of the green tucked behind a last bunker. I have NEVER seen someone who plays the Black for the first time, NOT stop & say "WOW!"

If nothing else, the Black is among the most beautiful courses in the world.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Scratch,

It is interesting that I have never really thought to compare BB with Shinnecock. I normally think to compare it with Winged Foot West due to Tillie and the parkland nature of both courses. However, the comparisons above made me think that Shinnecock is probably the better comparison due to the scale of both properties. They are huge, but BB is bigger.

Phil,

I took my business partner to BB last year for the first time. He hates to wait, and was sitting on the practice green very frustrated. When we hit that walk to BB #4, all the anxiety dropped away.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil the Author,

I would agree with you, there is something grand and riveting about BPB, and I agree with your moment of discovery, when standing on or exiting the 3rd green, and viewing the fourth hole for the first time.   There's something special about that vista, the scale, the terrain, the bunkering and the beauty that conspire to create an awe inspiring and unforgetable moment.

I think that you have to experience BPB in order to appreciate it.

It seems, that some, if not many of its detractors have never actually played it.

BPB is more architecturally substantive then length alone.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil / Mike:

You touched upon something that first time visitors often make of the Black -- the scale of the property and the bunkers. I can remember my first time playing the Black and it just literally blew me away because of the vast differences it had compared to all the other puny public courses at that time or since.

If I had to name one other aspect that instills a bit of an edge to SH it is the propensity for the wind to influence play there. BB certainly has its moments when the wind is up but it can't compare to the more exposed nature of what you find when playing SH.

The other "weak" aspect for the Black is the incredibly dull closer. I have said this over and over again but the finishing hole at any great course needs to seal the deal -- at SH it does. At the Black it doesn't.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I happened to like the old bunkers behind the 18th green.
I think they created an added visual and physical hazard.

But, who is this hole a dull finisher for ?

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

The former two bunkers in the back of the green were really a waste of time and energy to create. In all the years I played the Black when they were in existence I NEVER saw anyone in them. Talk about a Hollywood extra!

In regards to my comment on the hole being dull -- I witnessed first hand the manner by which the top players handled the hole during the '02 Open. It was a simple decision -- be sure to play any club that will keep you far enough back of the pinch-in zone where the fairway bunkers come in tight. From that point in the fairway they would then play a mid-iron at best to the green. This was the same MO for nearly all the players. There was little in the way of real strategy and I for one wanted to see a different style for a closing hole.

If I had to use a better word to define the hole it would be predictable.

I have already suggested here on GCA that the finishing hole at BB might be altered to provide for a driveable short par-4 in order to bring into play a much wider array of options. I know others have opined in having an even longer par-4 to close the round -- I don't favor that simply because you have already played a great number of such holes.

I credit Rees for doing the best he could given the limited options / $$ at that time in regards to the '02 Open. I just think BB needs to have a closing hole that continues in the grand manner to the superlative holes you face throughout the entire back nine and especially with the stretch run that begins with the tee shot at #15.

Let me also add that my comments are not simply in regards to how the world's best players played the hole. I think providing a bit of a more dynamic closing hole would add to the daily players that play the course as well.

[G_Tiska]

Richard Cabeza

That's cold!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

Those guys won't be back until 2009.

In the meantime, thousands of golfers are playing and enjoying the golf course, including # 18.

I don't think it's fair to categorize holes solely in the context of the best PGA Tour golfers.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Please read my last sentence in my prior post.

The "new" 18th hole doesn't present the kind of variety / elasticity that I believe a great course like Bethpage Black should have. Look at the final four holes and if one has to name the weakest of the bunch the 18th jumps to the front of the line IMHO.

Rees simply overdosed the bunker quotient in the drive zone and unless someone is hitting it laser like straight the best option is to do what the best players routinely did.

I also think the putting surface is also quite vanilla even though to Rees' credit he did take away a portion of the right hand side to create a tighter pin placement to that side.

I would ask you this -- do you believe the 18th at BB to be the equal of the 18th at SH? It's not even close IMHO.

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