[TEPaul]

gookin;

Completely agree with everything you said about those Pittsburgh area courses including Butler. I remember that one from a State Open perhaps 12 or so years ago--very good golf course. I liked that one too way up at the top west of the state on Lake Erie---Lake View or something like that. How about New Castle out north of you--I hear that's a very neat course? And that Ross nine at Rolling Rock should be seen by all architecture enthuiasts--that's one I'll never forget---some really terrific old architectural features there and even a few that really should be restored!

[Matt_Ward]

gookin:

As relates to the listing of other courses you mentioned in west Pennsy -- I can remember playing at Long Vue and the greens were just as speedy as the big dog course that has long had that reputation.

What surprises me is how little top quality golf exists in the Pennsylvania Highlands section in and around the area of Uniondale. I know there is Nemacolin Woodlands but given the qualtity of the terrain one would think there would be a few more courses of distinction in that undiscovered area. A pity.

[Mark Studer]

I have not played Huntington Valley nor have I seen Leheigh yet, with that said, Fox Chapel and Sunnehanna (Johnstown) round out my two favorites (in the west) after Oakmont. Oakmont can be BRUTAL and just no fun if you are not putting well or are hitting it particularly crooked. A couple times a season I  shoot a  score that is 12-15 shots higher than my average. Give Fox Chapel another 10 years of tree management and firming up the turf. Watch Out! Sunnehanna is taking down the conifers , and is a fine  test for championships and members too.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

You old dog, you haven't played HVGC or Lehigh yet? Done--tell me when--I'll arrange it! Have you played Lancaster, PCC, Manny's or Rolling Green yet or are you Eastern Pa. Flynnless?

[Mark Studer]

Tom - Philly CC is the only Flynn that I have played in eastern PA....played the one next to the sebonic bay course a few times, north miami's finest and the Cascades many times. My folks belonged to "Country" in cleveland  when we lived there in the 70's but I am definitely eastern Pa Flynn-deprived.

[Mark Studer]

My "give Fox Chapel 10 more years" comment comes with respect for what has been accomplished there thus far, and the 1st  hand perspective that the first tree was "managed" at Oakmont in 1989....15 years and we are  almost  completely managed.

[TEPaul]

Come on Fox Chapel, you can tell us, what's the real story on that microburst deal? Over here in the east of Pa we just call things like that lightening, sudden winter ice storms that were in and out so quick you must not have noticed or something like rot! But MICROBURSTS!? That's really creative!

[gookin]

Sorry I failed to mention Sunnehanna and in Erie you are thinking of Kawkua. I am sure I butchered the spelling but in will host a Women's Amateur this summer.  Hey any room in that foursome with Studer?

You will have to consult a meteorologist on the microburst, but it did allow us to remove over 300 trees that never would have been allowed by the local environmentalists.  Just proves God is a disciple of Seth Raynor.

[TEPaul]

gookin:

If you're talking to me about room in that foursome with Studer--you bet there is---anytime!

[mike_malone]

 Matt
 After days of reflection on this thread i will stick my neck out and say i think Rolling Green is a better golf course than Huntingdon Valley.Obviously my opinion should be understood as biased since i am a member of RG.
   HVCC is the Flynn course i played the most(other than RG).


   My major reason is more thet RG has more topographical variety.This i think makes the course more interesting and challenging.Because RG has more ups and downs both on the tee shot and the approach shot its interest is higher.Most of HVCC is flat or downhill off the tee.RG has practically 50/50 uphill-downhill.At the green   this ratio is also true,whereas HVCC is predominately flat or down to the green.I think there is also more variety in the lies one gets in the fairway since RG goes in many directions and has more uneven lies.HVCC has a higher amount of the same type-ball above your feet.
    This uphill tendency  at RG  works to create more interesting and challenging green complexes by naturally deeper bunkers and more easily sloping greens(no need to build them up)

    The general tendency of HVCC is around the bottom of the bowl,so the "feel" is usually right to left.This makes most of the approaches,chips,and putts go into the center of the course.RG routing has much more directional change.
     While i have not played HVCC enough to have experienced the many hole locations available,i would think they could not have as much variety as RG because  of the general slope of the greens.

   The last hole at HVCC is great and so i think it leaves a "taste" in people's mouth that is good.There is also much love of their firm and fast conditions and  their bunkers  are closer to Flynn's maintenance ideas.

   I thought this might provoke some interest.

[Matt_Ward]

mayday:

I hear you loud and clear -- I enjoyed the first class tour I received of RG with Wayne Morrison last year when the group was present. I had previously been on the grounds at RG during the play of the '76 Women's Open and seeing the course again was quite refreshing.

I don't doubt for a NY minute that the range of versatility is quite close between the two but the edge challenge I believe goes slightly to the column of HV.

Clearly, a good 19th hole debate can take place because the margin is not that far apart -- likely as far apart as Affirmed and Alydar were during their noted Triple Crown slugfest.

I'm sure we can discuss the particulars in a frank manner during the Baltusrol event this Saturday.

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

That's a truly fascinating comparison of HVGC and RG, some really unique observations by you. But you see this is precisely why I really don't like rankings. To me it somehow doesn't do one of the courses justice when one tries to prioritize. As far as I'm concerned both those courses are really good and their individual value should only be expressed for exactly what each is not as a comparative ranking. Philly is lucky to have those two because they're both so good and obviously for some different reasons which you point out! Lehigh and Lancaster are in that boat too.

[mike_malone]

 It does all come down to taste and values.I guess maybe i just want my fellow members to know that I DO LIKE MY COURSE.It's just the trees that need to go that i don't like.
   I guess really i just prefer RG to HVCC;there is no way to put one above the other.

   Matt
     Although i would like some specifics from you.

[Matt_Ward]

mayday:

I hope you're not serious in "lowering" the quality of HV simply because of the downhill holes?

I mean that's a bit of a stretch don't you think?

You also said ... "While i have not played HVCC enough to have experienced the many hole locations available,i would think they could not have as much variety as RG because  of the general slope of the greens."

Just a quick question how do you extrapolate such a overall assessment of the greens at HV with such a limited perspective? I found the greens to be a very fair and at times quite challenging -- particularly when trying to slot iron approaches to the many and varied par-4's you face there. In my mind -- the two courses from a greens perspective are at best a wash.

I think the edge goes to HV because the driving dexterity is simply more intense -- from both a length perspective and from the wherewithal to work the ball to the more favored fairway locations.

Thanks though for mentioning online your club affiliation -- it is appreciated because there are homers out there who tout their own places without ever mentioning that salient fact.

[TEPaul]

There's been an old standby story that's been out on the tournament circuit in the Philly district for decades that the primary reason the contingent from HVGC are year in and year out the most competitive A class players in the district is because they grew up playing endlessly on everything but a flat lie--and I mean bigtime. As I consequence the story goes they're really good ball strikers and I think I can testify to the fact that's true. There're about two holes at HVGC where if you hit a good drive you might have a flat lie.

This's also the reason that so many don't like HVGC--which in all honesty is nothing more than they just can't handle the less than flat lies that the players from HVGC grew up with!

I've no statistics to back this up but my sense is in the interclub Suburban League matches if an away team manages to beat HVGC at home it's about as usual as that US hockey team beating the Russians that time in the upset of the century!

[Jason Mandel]

Someone on here a while ago, it may have been Redanman, made what I thought to be a really good point.

It was in talking about HV.  What was said that although HV is such a good course and has so many outstanding qualities, one would question wether or not they would join that club if they had their choice of Flynn's in the area.  The reason, it is so DAMM hard!  I don't think anyone can deny the fact that when the greens are up to speed and the fairways are their ususal brown and firm and fast, there is no harder course in the area, save Pine Valley which I've never seen.  The poster said he may rather join Philly Country or perhapds RG simply because it is more enjoyable to play everyday.

I think there is a lot to be said for that comment.  And that third nine is no break, perhaps the toughest of any nine holes in the entire Philadelphia area.  I think it's no wonder they are so good in the Inter-club matches, hell their 3rd team could beat a majority of the A teams.

HV can be a hell of a lot of fun if you are striking the ball well, and hitting the greens in the right spots, if not you are in for a LONG day, and it is not an easy course to walk.

Jason

[Mike_Cirba]

Perhaps it's just the almost unique day-to-day maintenance setup of Huntingdon Valley, but it's tough to beat a course where one's approach shots are often not only not aimed at the flag, but sometimes not even at the green!

Of any Philly area courses I'm familiar with, only Stonewall comes close in this regard.  

As much as I love Rolling Green (and Lehigh, and Philly Country Club, and...), Huntingdon Valley is pure fun and variety to me and a slight notch above.  

[mike_malone]

 I just wanted to thank everyone for their comments on HVCC vs. RG.I am with Tom Paul in believing ratings are difficult.
     My main point was if "variety" is your main value i prefer RG.
    Matt
        There are many things i can say in response to your post but i think it would just be argumentitive on my part.
     

[Matt_Ward]

mayday:

Quite the contrary -- I found your comments and your pride in RG to be refreshing.

I also said that the depth between a number of the key clubs in and around a 50-mile radius of Center City is extremely competitive and clearly when I review the Digest Pennsy listing I have to wonder how some of the clubs listed above HV and RG got there. My preference for 3rd place in the Keystone State though stays with HV.

[mike_malone]

 Matt
    Now that i know where you stand i go about changing your mind.

[mike_malone]

 I think it is more likely that the quality of HVCC and how it is maintained ATTRACTS very goog golfers.It doesn't make them good.
 Most of the other topnotch GAP teams  do not come from the best courses.They are just good golfers.

[frank_D]

I'd be curious to see what course they believe (and others) garners the 3rd best position from the Keystone State?

brother Matt Ward

as the Keystone State is currently under a glacier how about another try at the Sunshine State ?

we have a spot for a fourth SUN MAR 7th 10:40AM Tiburon Naples FLA - care to join us ?

[Matt_Ward]

frank d:

Thanks for the gracious invite ...

I'll be in your "neck of the woods" from 3/7 through 3/11 but I'm booked solid with golf connected to the Bonita Bay Group set of courses. This is a media and industry related event.

Unfortunately, I don't arrive in the Sunshine State until late in the day on 3/7. How bout getting together for a drink that evening? I'm at the Trianon / Bonita Bay hotel. Send me a note offline and I can respond ASAP.

One last thing -- unrelated to this thread -- what do others think is the 3rd best course in the Sunshine State -- I'm guessing Seminole and TPC / Stadium would garner the top two positions.

[frank_D]

Send me a note offline and I can respond ASAP.

matt ward

done - check your e-mail

subject : sun mar 7

[frank_D]

One last thing -- unrelated to this thread -- what do others think is the 3rd best course in the Sunshine State -- I'm guessing Seminole and TPC / Stadium would garner the top two positions.

brother matt ward

i don't know if this was directed to me or others on this site more qualified that i - but i rate courses as follows - the course i'm playing today (colony west) is the best, the one i'm reserved on for this sunday (bonaventure - west) the second best and next (sunday mar 7 tiburon) week the third best - not as scientific an approach you would take perhaps - but its results are predicatably replicable (ie anyone who uses this system will yield consistent results)

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