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Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2004, 03:58:30 PM »
Matt -

The Phillie mantra you hear about Aronimink is that it is "one dimensional". I don't get it, unless you mean one great hole after another, ho hum. ;)

The front nine is as good as any nine holes by Ross I've played. Not a mediocre hole in the bunch. There are some long par 4's on the back that have somewhat similar yardages, but, boy, that's being picky. I'm not a huge fan of no. 17, but I understand a lot of RTJ was left there.

The Ron Pritchard restoration is masterful. The best I have ever seen. Superb bunker work. Wonderful blending of green surrounds with contours.

I think the sins of the previous versions of The Mink are still visited on the current course. Happily, I never saw the old versions, so I saw the current layout with virgin eyes.

Bottom line is that Ross was right. He intended to design a championship course and he was " more succeessful than he thought".  

After the usual suspects, The Mink deserves a very high ranking. Next time you are over that way, play it again. I think you will be impressed.

Bob

I agree completely agree with this post!  I've had the opportunity to play many of the courses in Philadelphia, and Aronimink is absolutely the best of the group.  Sure I'm biased, and here's my observation based on a limited (but growing) knowledge of design:

The recent restoration definitely brought back much of the character of the course, which we all know was lost in previous renovations.  The greens have been enlarged to their intended sizes and shapes (bringing in new approach shots to different pin-positions), bunkering was restored to their strategic positions (like fairway bunkers on number one which was moved to locations that in play for the average member and their guests),  and fairways were reshaped to bring back strategy off the tee (which should silence those critics that say it's one long, straight par 4 after another).  

The course could still use some more tree clearing and time to mature.  But, it's no doubt the #3 course in the state.

Wigs


Matt_Ward

Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2004, 06:01:25 PM »
It would be nice to know -- for the purposes of full disclosure -- if people say definitively that course "X" is the 3rd best in Pennsy -- they should also mention if they happen to be a member at course "X" IF it applies.

I have not been back to Aronimink since the work by Ron Prichard was completed. My initial opinion was that the previous course was simply an overdoes torture track that required pinpoint driving -- both length and accuracy -- it had the same personality type as Laurel Valley. Yes, a number of the greens had the Ross touch but overall from a memorability standpoint Aronimink was like your old high school physics teacher -- a tough nut to crack for a grade and one not given to any unique asides that kept you interested for the long haul.

I look forward to seeing the course again -- possibly this year if time permits.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2004, 07:55:08 PM »
Matt;

The restored Aronimink is definitely worth a visit.  I guarantee you'll like it much better than its predecessor.

As far as the 3rd best course in PA, I've yet to play anything in western PA (I've "seen" Oakmont multiple times, however), and have yet to play Lancaster, so take this with a grain of salt.  However, I have a tough time thinking of anything more enjoyable than Huntingdon Valley.  Also agree that the revitalized Philly CC is very, very good.

TEPaul

Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2004, 08:32:15 PM »
Rest assured that the restored Aronimink is a harder course to score on now than it used to be. Some length has been added to it too recently. The restored (and enhanced) bunkering on the course certainly makes the course more thought provoking off the tees as well.

The greens of Aronimink are actually orginal Ross and luckily were never touched in the redesigns the course went through. They are extremely good greens anyway you look at them and their expansion back to original shapes mostly make them much more interesting.

Aronimink has thinned out the excessive treelining the holes used to have and word is that the club may be considering some more tree removal that would give the course more of a parkland look (where players could see through possibly wide gaps to other holes). That would indeed enhance the course as the roll and lay of the land is really pretty and the "lines" of the golf holes meld into that natural topography very well. I'd say if Aronimink did some serious tree removal, possibly what they might consider massive removal the change would end up being stunning to one and all!

Aronimink will probably always have that "long course" reputation as it pretty much has always been basically a 7,000 par 70. If it had a short little par 3 and a couple of short little par 4s it probably would shed that reputation. The thing about it is the par 5s are both basically reachable to the long hitter so that leaves the course with a lot of long par 4s to get to a 7,000yd par 70. I shouldn't really say it doesn't have a short par 4 because #13 isn't very long and it's an excellent hole and one really enhanced by the restored Ross bunkering. Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing #7 shortened some--then it too would fall into the short category. I don't know that shortening #7 would necessarily make it a better hole but it might because as a shorter par 4 I believe more players would make mistakes in judgement on the tee shot due to increased problems for those trying to cut the dogleg as well as those who might go straight through it by not playing it enough !

Matt_Ward

Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2004, 11:50:42 AM »
TEPaul:

Does Aronimionk have the "elasticity" in hole design to be thought of as architecturally gifted? I mean from the two times I played the course the series of one long par-4 hole followed by another left me wanting for something more.

Within the Phillie area does the "new" Aronimink merit such a gifted position as #3 in the Keystone State?

I'm a big fan of the other renowned Phillie courses but I still believe HV has the wider array of holes and focuses more on the total experience than one with difficulty front and center.

I eagerly look forward to seeing the "new" Aronimink.

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2004, 11:52:12 AM »
It would be nice to know -- for the purposes of full disclosure -- if people say definitively that course "X" is the 3rd best in Pennsy -- they should also mention if they happen to be a member at course "X" IF it applies.

My apologies for the lack of disclosure... I am a member of Aronimink, although I currently live in San Francisco.  

Wigs

BCrosby

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2004, 01:31:50 PM »
Wigs -

You da' man. :)

To the Phillie/NJ mafia:

Jeez. I'm starting to think that you tough guys see The Mink as a girl who lost her reputation but now, after years of unblemished virtue, can't get it back. Give her a freakin' break.

I can only assume that the boring, unrelenting, repetitive, long par 4's you guys don't like are on the back nine, 'cuz the front is maybe the best 9 holes Ross ever did. As in "ever did".

So let's open our yardage books to the back nine.

10 - long par 4 (downhill). Wonderful green with a right side run-off.
11 - medium length par 4 (uphill). Nice elevated green.
12 - long par 4. Very good fairway bunkering. Very good green.
13 - short par 4. Tight driving area. Nicely contoured green.
14 - medium length par 3. Good hole. (Do I have 13 and 14 reversed?)
15 - big boy long par 4/5 (uphill). (Do they vary its setup?)
16 - reachable par 5 (downhill). Wonderful bunkering in second shot landing area. Nasty pin positions on left. All three shots require thought.
17 - long par 3. (Doesn't look like Ross. I hear it's not.)
18 - medium par 4 (uphill). Didn't change my life, but not a bad hole.

(Btw, with today's technology, I don't think any of these holes are back-breakingly long any more.)

So help me out here. What subset of these holes do people find repetitive or one dimensional? Cuz this rube from the piney woods of Georgia thinks it is one heck of a nine holes, fully deserving of its pairing with the other nine.

Bob



 
   
« Last Edit: February 24, 2004, 01:38:37 PM by BCrosby »

mike_malone

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2004, 01:48:26 PM »
 I really cannot explain why Aronimink leaves me cold.Maybe because i have enjoyed the variety i find in the other Philly area courses,mostly Flynn but also Merion and Philly Cricket.
   It could be just the "look" that creates the feeling that every hole is the same.  Maybe the way the trees are alike or how when on the tee it seems straightaway with bunkers in the landing area.What i find interesting is that practically everybody i ever talk to about Aronimink from Philly has a similar opinion.I am open to the idea that i am just offbase,but for some reason the question"is it fun?" hurts Aronimink versus the competition.
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2004, 02:10:23 PM »
 IMO it is tough to be #3 in the state when you  are arguably behind 6 other courses within 20 miles of the city of Philadelphia.I am not saying the others are definitely better-just Aronimink is in this crowd.-it does not stand out.


   ( philly cricket,philmont,rolling green,philly country,huntingdon valley,manufacturers----merion not included since it is considered#1 or#2 in state.)

   OK---its #3-----in Delaware County!!!! :D
« Last Edit: February 24, 2004, 02:36:11 PM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

BCrosby

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2004, 02:45:55 PM »
Mayday -

I'm not arguing that Aronimink should be #3 in PA. I'm arguing that it should be in the top 5 in PA - East. The first couple of posters left it off even that, more humble, list.

But I've got another head-scratcher for you Phillie guys.

How is it people rank Phillie Cricket so highly? A very cramped, mediocre front nine. And that's without taking into account the awful tree situation there. Some good holes on the back. Some not so good holes. 18 is nutty. You have to work a 3 iron (or more) around an old oak to a half blind, severe green bordered by a creek. Other than being extremely hard, I'm at a loss for words.

Rolling Green is in a different league altogether. Haven't played the other courses you mentioned.

Bob

 


mike_malone

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2004, 02:47:34 PM »
 I wonder whether Frankford-Torresdale(or Torresdale-Frankford) is not a more interesting and fun Ross course in Philadelphia than Aronimink. The use of the terrain is more angled than Aronimink.The short par 4 on the front more appealing;the par threes significantly more varied and pleasurable.So this is not an anti-Ross opinion.
    As a matter of fact i think Torresdale can move  up more than  any course in the area if they start to address the tree issue.
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2004, 03:04:25 PM »
Bob;

Interesting that Tom Doak lists the 18th at Philly Cricket in his "18 holes that most deserve copying" list.  

I haven't played Cricket yet, so it's tough for me to comment only that I found your differing opinions worth noting.

 

mike_malone

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2004, 03:12:31 PM »
 I find the par fives at Cricket to  be so-so,but i like the short par threes and the other two par threes are challenging.Possibly could use a longer par three to balance things(BTW #8 at Aronimink is great par three).

   Several par fours are  memorable and show Tillie's variety---#9 and#18 as long ones---#5 and#6 as short ones.But i would not argue better than Aronimink -just that they are very close in my mind.
AKA Mayday

Jason Mandel

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2004, 03:37:38 PM »
This is a very interesting debate.  What I have found is that people in the Philadelphia area love Philly Cricket.  I loved it the first time I walked the course.  There is a great variety of holes and it just a beatiful walk in the park.  However, most outsiders seem to dismiss Philly Cricket as a great course.  

Just look at Golf Digests rankings and you see Philly Cricket barely breaks the top 20 in PA and Aronimink is 3 or 4.  Now most people in Philadelphia still feel highly about Aronimink, they just don't put it head and shoulders aboves Flynn's greats.  

I wonder if Philadelphians love Cricket club so much because it is different, yet classic from anything we have, and it is our only Tilly course.  As far as the par 5's go at Cricket club, I certainly would say that your 2nd shot is def the most important one.  They are not the strongest suit of the course, but they are solid.  I was shocked when I saw in Geoff Shackleford's book the aerial photo's of a couple of the par 5's and how dramatically different they look.  

Mayday,

I like Philmont, I like the atmosphere of the place, and god knows I love the greens.  But do you really put it in the top 5 in Philly?  The tree issues there are perhaps the worst of anycourse in the area, worse than Manny's by far.  And I know it has been said that some of those trees are by design, I still think it is really bad there.  I must have played there 10 times last year and there turf is in horrible shape because of the trees.  

I also think it has been really hurt by technology, and even though the greens help keep the scores up, the course is just a little too short for todays game.  And I am a fan of the place, but I just can't put it in the top 5, too many weak holes.  

Jason Mandel
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

mike_malone

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2004, 03:51:12 PM »
 Jason.

    I said six in my post so i had to find six :D
       I expect that White Manor will be knocking on the door now.
AKA Mayday

Jason Mandel

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2004, 04:07:41 PM »
Mayday,

I'll be intersted to see how White Manor gets looked at over the next few years.  Obviously I love the place and almost everything Weed did to the pace.  I have trouble comparing it to some of the more classic courses in the area for a couple of reasons.

1, WM was originally built in the 1950's so it was no where near as old as some of the flynn classics, but 2, there are a lot of spots on the course where it reminds you of a more modern course  and lacks that classic feel.  however, there are still some holes that have that classic feel.  it's a unique mix as to what Weed did.  Almost everyone that I have talked to that has played it has loved what was done, including some of the better club pro's in the area.  It certainly is a unique course now that is not normally seen in this area.

You also left Stonewall and Whitemarsh out of that first group, a couple of courses that probably should be up there.

As far as Torresdale goes, I am on of the few that didn't seem to fall in love with the place.  Perhaps it was the horrilbe course conditions when I was there, or my game was shot to hell, but it didn't do anything for me.  Had some different variety of holes, but again, technology seems to have hurt this course as well.  
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

wsmorrison

Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2004, 04:33:36 PM »
While I am not overly enamored with the Cricket Club, it is does have some very nice holes, it is just as a whole I find the course not quite up to some formidable competition in the eastern PA area.  If I were to rank courses, it would fall just below my top 10.  I find the short par 3s (3 and 10) very good holes but many of the holes run back and forth in the same orientation (1,2,4,5,7,9,11,12,14,16) so there is little triangulation on ground that had a lot of open space when it was built.  William Flynn reworked a number of holes in 1927, a mere 4 years after it opened for play.  Flynn added a number of bunkers around the course and did not touch the first three holes.  He removed chocolate drops on the par 5 7th (was the 4th in the old routing progression) and extended the bunker in front across the green.  On the old par 3 5th, the current 8th, Flynn reduced the length of play by some 40 yards where it became a 140 yard shot to carry the stream rather than 180 which a lot of members could not pull off.  On the former 6th, current 9th hole, Flynn had the tee left of its present location and had some carry bunkers guarding the left side, a much more interesting tee shot.  At some point, probably in the 30s, the bunkers were removed and the tee shot played from next to the railway line.  There were no changes to the old 7th and 8th, these are the current 4th and 5th holes.  The old 9th, the current 6th had a new tee built to the right of the old one and Flynn put traps in along the right side of the fairway, the remnants of which can be seen today.  Flynn enlarged the greenside bunkers as well.  On the short 10th hole, Flynn raised the tee 2 feet to show more of the green and the fairway in front of the green hollowed out to show an enlarged bunker which used to be concealed.  There was no change on 11.  On the par 5 12th, Flynn moved the tee to the right so that the first shot was over the quarry rather than around it.  This created a truly dramatic shot that was unfortunately removed when the tee was put back.  Flynn put in the big right side fairway bunker on 13 that dictated play to the left.  On the 14th, Flynn added fairway bunkers on either side of the landing area.  The 15th and 16th were unchanged.  On 17, Flynn put in a new tee a bit short and left of the old one.  The 18th was left unchanged.

As for Aronimink, it is vastly improved under the direction of Ron Prichard. Yet still remains for the most part underappreciated as if it is having difficulty shedding its former image.  I would definitely put it in the top 10 of eastern PA area courses, somewhere around 6 or 7 if I had to rank them.  If anything I would say that it suffers from not enough variety.  Tree removal opened up a lot of dramatic views and brought the wind more into play.  The bunker work is simply outstanding.  The holes are routed well to all points of the compass and they always had some terrific greens.  I think the variety in the par 4s is a bit narrow.  Most of the 410-465 yard par 4s are straight away such as 1,3,4,10,11,12,15,18.  13 is also a straight away 390 yarder.  But the changes in topography help differentiate the holes in some cases (1,10,11,18).  The par 3s are very good in different directions with yardages of 173, 214, 202, 187.  A nice short par 3 might have been nice to add variety.  The 2 par 5s are of similar yardage with the direction of play different by 90 degrees.  The greens are relatively benign but the mound on 16 running into the middle of the green is interesting.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2004, 04:37:27 PM by wsmorrison »

Matt_Ward

Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2004, 05:07:18 PM »
What I have always found interesting about the Keystone State is that after you get past the dynamic duo at the top --the sheer depth of courses from say #3 through #15 is quite competitive and arguably possesses a deeper array of architectural heft than nearly all the states with the exception of just a few (e.g. NY & NJ).

Although I favor HV as my 3rd best course in the state one can do no wrong that simply going on a golf tour in and around Center City (a 50 mile radius) and you will see more in that tight amount of acreage than nearly any other locale.

In addition, western Pennsy is much, much more than just Oakmont -- e.g. Fox Chapel, Pittsburgh Field Club, etc, etc.

FYI -- I also have to say The Ace Club is worthy of a look for those who have not played the new design by Player / Henderson. Is it ahead of all the suspects IDed on this thread -- no, but it offers a serious challenge to a number of them. Credit the partnership between Player and his linking up with Warren Henderson for the finished product IMHO.

BCrosby

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2004, 05:35:17 PM »
Matt -

I agree. Pennsylania is golf blessed. It has an incredible number of terrific courses. Which is why it is so much fun the quibble about them. ;)

Thinking about Aronimink, I'd guess there are two reasons it is not as well loved by locals as I think it ought to be. First, it is a Ross course with a distinctive Ross flavor that may not fit the Phillie eye that grew up on Flynn or Tillie or Wilson.

Second, and less important, is that the holes on the back nine are all pretty straight. Nary a dogleg in the bunch. (Well, maybe 18 bends a little.) Perhaps that is where the "one dimensional" stuff comes from. Dunno. Still, a wonderful course in a region overflowing with wonderful courses.

Bob

mike_malone

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2004, 05:58:19 PM »
 Matt
    I think we are fortunate that the terrain right around Philly is conducive to great courses.Hilly but not too much so.Also,the early 20 th century people with bucks took advantage of this wealth of good golfing ground and built courses.The fact that there was a school of architecture as well was important.Those thinking of building courses could see Merion and Pine Valley and say i want a course at that level.
     I have forgotten Gulph Mills which is high on my list of favorites---see !!!that tells you how good the competition is.
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2004, 06:04:01 PM »
Mayday:

I don't know about Gulph Mills. Don't you remember that guy rpurd who kept telling me on here Gulph Mills was such a piece of shit course that he'd look into setting me up for a round at Squires? I'm sorry I ran afoul of that rpurd guy because missing out on that round at Squires is a missed opportunity I'll probably never forget!

mike_malone

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2004, 06:05:44 PM »
Tom
    From what i understand you missed a chance to play in your UNDERWEAR!!!!
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #72 on: February 24, 2004, 06:10:57 PM »
Actually I did play over there not that many years ago and right ahead of me was a group including something like Frankie Avalon, Bobby Riddell and Fabian. It was like a damn time warp!

;)

gookin

Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2004, 06:28:48 PM »
Just to try to keep up with the Philly crowd.  Let me give Western Pa some more support.

After our leader Oakmont, the next tier has Fox Chapel and Pgh Field Club (which stood up very well in the 2003 US Amateur). While Laurel Valley fails to get classic support from GCA enthusiasts it is a great place and much better without Palmer fooling with the greens. Little mention has been made of Butler which with the exception of the 11 th hole stacks up well with all the Philly names.  Not mentioned at all in this discussion, Longue Vue Club which has benefited from significant tree removal and has a final four holes which match any of the clubs mentioned. Finally, the original front nine at Rolling Rock is just a delight to play and worthy of listing here.

By the way the more I think about it I am sticking up for my own club Fox Chapel as #3. I am used to being in the minority. Thank you Mark Studer.

mike_malone

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Re:Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?
« Reply #74 on: February 24, 2004, 06:36:56 PM »
gookin
    Mabe we need to have a duel ---You come to Rolling Green;i'll go to Fox Chapel and we'll settle this like men.
AKA Mayday

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