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DMoriarty

Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« on: February 19, 2004, 12:51:36 AM »
On the other Torrey threads, there were a quite a few posters who stuck up for Torrey Pines and/or denounced the views of those who dont think much of the course.  

I've made my views known:  The view is nice, but I cant think if anything special about the architecture.  If Mr. Jones' improved the course, I didnt catch the improvements.

Since many of you seem to be fans of the course, perhaps some of you can fill me in regarding the following:

1.   Aside from the views and the climate, what makes TPS a good golf course?

2.   Which holes at TPS are world class holes?  Which are excellent if not quite world class?  

3.   Aside from making it longer, which of Mr. Jones' changes improved the course?

Thanks.  

JakaB

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2004, 01:20:26 AM »
D,

1.  Even Tommy says it is a great place to hang out...I played in the most cultural diverse group of my life...I would love on a lazy day to be able to go out and take a crap shoot on being paired with someone interesting...not that that can't happen in Southern Illinana...

2. 3, 14 world class....10, 11, 12, 13...excellent championship card and pencil challenge...not that that group of holes is famous on any other course.

3.  Drainage, drainage, drainage....damn I love improved drainage....

DMoriarty

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2004, 02:10:59 AM »
JakaB;

1.    I agree that Torrey is a fine place to hang out.  If I were rich I would have my own room at the lodge.  But I am not sure the golf ads anything to this 'hang out' experience . . . Southern California is culturally diverse, and you are likely to have a similar experience at any number of public courses.  Yet, unfortunately, many are not good golf courses. . . . Anything about the golf that makes it great?  

2.  What makes 2, 3, and 14 world class? (I meant to ask this in the original question)  . . . Isnt "excellent championship card and pencil challenge" just another way of saying they are hard?  Are you saing they are good because they are hard?  

3.  Billy Jr. just didnt have the same touch for drainage as his father.  When I was there post changes parts of the course were swampish, but I will consider this an anomoly and take your word for it that Mr. Jones improved the drainage.   Did he improve anything else?    

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2004, 03:20:48 AM »
John,
Its also cool to hang out at Jakes of Del Mar. Especially after a day at the races. Gib will back me up on this. Bully's is also pretty good too.

I agree with David regarding the drainage and even strategies displayed by BB Jr. at Torrey Pines. It was a good golf course before. Its still a good golf course. It's just not a GREAT course. There is one hole that I consider a good golf hole at TP-S, and thats the downhill par 3, 3rd, which I personally feel Rees missed a huge, and I mean huge opportunity in rejuevenating or bettering the Redan nature of the hole, which I don't think Billy Bell really captured either. I think it could have been World Class; instead its just a dressed-down, down hill par 3 with an ocean back-drop. No inspiring bunkering, and this is probably a perfect example of a green that didn't need to be touched as far as contouring. Lots of three putts on that one in the old days!

« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 03:23:40 AM by Tommy_Naccarato »

James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2004, 05:47:45 AM »
David,

I agree with Jaka on 14 being a cut above.

The hole had a gentle release around the corner of the cliff.  The improvements I believe were a new tee placed 30m further back and the green was moved towards the edge.  before the hole was straight and shorter.  Great green formation with the chance to place tough pins.  Saturday had it left side tucked away and Sunday had it right side tucked away.

A long testing par 4, with a huge first and second shot placement advantages depending on pin location.  I went on Saturday to watch Daly and he hit a long 3 wood down the left side and had an approach to a tight pin tucked on the left which looked unobtainable, with huge implications if missed left.

James
@EDI__ADI

JakaB

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2004, 07:42:23 AM »
JakaB;

1.    I agree that Torrey is a fine place to hang out.  If I were rich I would have my own room at the lodge.  But I am not sure the golf ads anything to this 'hang out' experience . . . Southern California is culturally diverse, and you are likely to have a similar experience at any number of public courses.  Yet, unfortunately, many are not good golf courses. . . . Anything about the golf that makes it great?  

2.  What makes 2, 3, and 14 world class? (I meant to ask this in the original question)  . . . Isnt "excellent championship card and pencil challenge" just another way of saying they are hard?  Are you saing they are good because they are hard?  

3.  Billy Jr. just didnt have the same touch for drainage as his father.  When I was there post changes parts of the course were swampish, but I will consider this an anomoly and take your word for it that Mr. Jones improved the drainage.   Did he improve anything else?    
David,

1.  I don't know if the golf is great...but I do know that the expectation of greatness by the first time golfer enhances the experience.   For architecturally ignorant people like me it reminds me of when you see two ugly people in love...the course pushes my buttons and therefore gets me in a better mood opening up my happy receptors...don't bother asking why because if I ever figure that out it may become a struggle to be happy.

2.  2 was a number not a hole...I have a small sample size and 3 and 14 are beautifully rare hole in my book.  I am glad 3 is not more redanesque but not half as glad that any of my playing partners didn't try to impress me saying it was.   10-13 are not just hard...13 is easy...that stretch is a big bowl of strategic gumbo for the professional golfer....each hole as it stands alone is not as great as the group....could be called ummmmm corner as a tribute to Cali's diverse religious base.

3.  I did not see the original work...but I do enjoy that the fairway bunkers are in play for the pros....I also like that aiming for a bunker is better than the rough.  You coined the get in the bunker school of architecture...I like it as a spectator...I can't reach the bunkers as a player...and that was fun too.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2004, 07:51:07 AM »
JakaB- As I recall there never use to be fairway bunkers. Imagine that.

CHrisB

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2004, 10:34:26 AM »
1. Obviously the views and climate are great! It's a great walk, and I like the routing. I also like the fact that it is a difficult course. I have not played it since the renovation, but I enjoyed Torrey Pines as a supreme test of green-reading--you really had to see and think well to judge just what the putt would do, and I saw putts that seemed to break uphill to go toward the ocean! I only played there in tournaments, so I can't comment on the usual condition of the course, but for tournament play the conditions were very good.

So without commenting about how "good" the course is compared to others, I'll just say I found it to be quite enjoyable, and definitely worth playing.

2. There are no world class holes at Torrey Pines, although 3 and 4 could be with some work. 3 is an excellent hole as mentioned, and I'd love the fairway on #4 to be moved right to the edge of the cliff, with some tough bunkering right and the green complex reversed--right now the opening to the green is from the right, almost favoring the bail-out from the tee (which a ton of pros did). I'd like to see a reward for hugging the cliff off the tee. I also like #1, #7, the stretch of 10-14, #16 from the far left tee (if it still exists), and the 17th tee shot. The rest are just "solid" holes, no real stinkers but nothing extra special either.

3. I can't comment on Rees' changes because I haven't played the course since he made them, but moving 3 greens closer to the canyon sounds good to me.

But in the end, it's all about enjoyment, and if I enjoy the golf at Torrey Pines, how can anyone argue with that? It is somewhat of an acquired taste, and I wouldn't skip my next chance to play Riviera to go there, but it is worth playing, and if you find yourself disliking the architecture or playing poorly...be thankful that the views and climate are what they are!

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2004, 11:13:10 AM »
Tommy, I agree 100% on number 3. My first thoguht was that could be a great redan. I wonder if the soil is firm enough for the redan effect to work on a downhill shot though. I like a downhill redan for the runaway effect can be viewed and enjoyed. Please no purest comments about the uphill etc. It is a good hole and one of the best on the course. But it is still an opportunity lost. The ocean make it a great view and the hotel now adds to the ambiance, but it is just a good course no more no less. Rees brought nothing to the table here but made changes which really did not improve the course. I think it was better before in many ways.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 11:15:30 AM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2004, 12:59:27 PM »
Tommy & JB;

How do you make the kicker slope front right of your proposed Redan work with a Kikuyu surface? Would you plant a different strain of grass there just for that hole? The ground is contoured there right now so that IF conditions where right you could play a draw short right and access the right side of the green, avoiding the carry over the front bunker, however I've never tried that shot because the locals do not enjoy anything but soggy conditions the other 51 weeks of the year.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 02:03:09 PM by Pete_L. »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2004, 01:55:11 PM »
Pete, You just answered most of the complaint.

Do you think the Kikuya infiltrating Torrey is in the same extent at Riviera? Personally, I don't think so. Also, the bunkering is less then dramatic as it could have been. Think of LACC #4 with the back drop of downtown Los Angeles. Tell me how a dramatically bunkered really swell playing Redan would have made that hole World Class.

Also, when I was there on the day of the first player teeing off on the newly renovated South, I didn't notice any Kikuya at all, or maybe I was just blinded by all of that Kentucky Blue Grass rough! If the fairways are Kikuya over at Torrey Pines, then they are anything but close to the Kikuya that has inundated Riviera.

Now thats Kikuya!

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2004, 02:46:56 PM »
Tommy;

You're absolutely right, 3 was a great candidiate for a Redan. Also, 8 would have made a wicked Short, 11 had great Biarritz potential, and we could have turned 16 into the Eden while we were at it. However the mission statement did not ask to turn Bell into Raynor, it was to land the Open, and it suceeded! At the stimpmeter readings that will be in force in 2008 balls will roll off your Redan green and onto Black's Beach with a severe front to back slope. Look, Rees did what the Century Club asked, don't blame him. Now if you want to assess blame how about starting with the boys and girls out at Far Hills. They don't want Classic architecture, they want rigorous pass/fail shot values which the South does have. Now, is this what's best for the the people that play here the other 51 weeks of the year? It might be if you can play as good as Barney, and I don't know why that small percentage of elite ballstrikers can't have one golf course that trips their trigger. It probably helped save what's left of the Captains work up the road, and what was lost here is not going to cause anyone to loose any sleep.  
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2004, 04:17:32 PM »
Pete,

First off, in case of claims of bias are labeled upon me, I want to say this about that--Golf Club Atlas is a site where one should freely expound the virtues of great golf architecture to being critical of the lack thereof.  Some of us are frequently condemened for being biased, unruly, out of line, and lack of subjectivity. I find all of those complaints as nothing more then fodder for lack of argument. I think Torrey Pines is a perfect course to hilight this, because now that the archives are up and running, one can go back to my original post some three years ago, about this time of year where I suggest that Rees could have done better--I have always maintained this, and will until he either makes changes or tweaks--or if God Himself comes down from the Heavens, throws a lighting bolt at the bluff where the course sits, and crumbles that bluff of sandstone into water-leveled dunes--Torrey Pines will always be nothing more then just a O.K. golf course in a beautiful setting as long as Billy Bell or Rees Jones design theories are intact. That is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

That being.....

You don't think a Redan was Bell's original intention there? Who said anything about a Short, Biarritz, and a Eden? As far as a Cape, then Rees did a pretty good job of creating a somewhat modified one at the 14th there don't you think? :) And just to show you how fair I'm being about this, go back and look at all of the posts where I compliment him on the 14th. Its a far better hole now then it was back then, because why? I think not because he went closer to the cliff, but because he made it look different, gave it some character which many of the old holes never really ever had. They all looked the same, and in some cases, even played the same.

I have said before, I'm not as offended at what Rees Jones did there as some might think. He took a somewhat deteriorated muni and transformed it to the mammoth that it is today. Just think, the 2008 US Open at Torrey Pines!  If that is the case, then Sandpiper should also be a legitmate candidate for Reesification so it to can become a staple or bargaining chip in the US Open rota!

Sounds ridiculous? That's exactly my point! Torrey Pines is not a US Open-quality design golf course. It never will be. Its been given a hand-me-down Open because they want to make money--lots of money and admittingly, San Diego--one of the Worlds' Most Beautiful Cities is just the site to welcome tourism; handle it with the hotel rooms, and even many other attractions from the Zoo to Lego Land to appease those loud mouth brats that had to come on your US Open vacation with you. (I say give'em a surfboard and tell them to become part of the food chain!--you can play with your Legos at home!)

I think Rees Jones could have done so much better, even with lower budget that was afforded him. Before he started this project, he said in press conferences that he was going to honor and respect the memory of Billy Bell, and when I stand in the middle of the 13th fairway and look at that monstrosity of golf architcture, to me that is a horrible waste of what could have been something far better that I KNOW in fact he is fully capable of creating.

As far as using the excuse that he was doing what the Century Club instructed him to do, makes about as much sense as saying Yale Golf Club instructed Roger Rulewich to construct bunkers and eliminate key ground features intregal to their classic Seth Raynor design.  Think about it, if your a group of citizens and denizens wanting to attract the US Open, and the economy that it will bring, what exactly are you in the postion to demand?  All the more reason to understand that they were working off of the suggestions of the USGA to hire their Open Doctor, and have him make these changes.

I applaude him for not using those hideous mounds. I detest the fact that the bunkers look as if a team of Terminator 100's under direction of Arnold Sharwznegger designed and shaped them.

As far as subjectivity, for such a wonderful setting, I actually think Fazio would have done a far better job because the bunker style alone would have ben refreshing and natural--more in terms of the setting to the site. But indeed if Fazio would have had this project, I could only visualize the look on the Century Club's face when he presented them with the bill!

« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 06:02:13 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2004, 07:07:43 PM »
Tommy;

Billy Bell Jr's 3rd hole was far from being a Redan. It was downhill, with the green sloping back to front with two bunkers at 5 & 7 o'clock. So I'd say no, it was not his intent to build a Redan; the original 3rd was really more like an Eden. Unfortunately I haven't seen enough great architecture to understand just how Rees missed a great opportunity here, thanks for trying to educate me. Maybe you could be more specific as to what exactly should have been done. My point was that the design was driven by the USGA and Rees was giving them just what they wanted. If it helped to save a Classic course from being butchered then I'm glad we sacrificed the South to do it. I would rather see something done to the ball so that these Championships could be conducted on your favorite Classics without altering them, but that looks as likely to happen as me shooting 59 this weekend.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2004, 08:01:18 PM »
An Eden?

Pete, I may be incorrect here, but maybe I'm thinking of the way #3 plays on the North? (Two holes that can get confusing given their nature)  

If I am, I'm wrong, and freely admit it, but wouldn't that then mean that Rees was going for that Redan feel given the way he has configured the fairway?

How would I have done it? well, if it was me, I would have probably destoryed both courses and figured out a new routing, but that would have meant I was destroying a course I do like--The North Course.

But as far as inducing the more natural environment of the site itself, including in the bunker work and placement, I think it could have been much better. I'm talking getting rid of a lot of trees to open up those beautiful vistas and using a lot of native scrub, thus making it look ugly to most because it looks natural. I think I would have at least one or two holes that required a carry of the canyon off the tee for both a driver or a mid to long iron or both. I would probably have used the same third, just as Rees has, but if possible in a more quirky fashion where you could bounce it off a hill or mound to get to a special pin placement. I would have holes changing a whole slew of directions.

But I'm not the architect.......

Pete, should the USGA be dictating directives on course design, as well as suggesting architects? I thought they said they didn't do this?

As I said once again, I think Rees could have made this course much better. He has the talent, even according to him, to do it. Now, its just a really dumb, long, boring golf course. It always has been that, and the more that I think of it, makes me want even more to play the North Course over and over and over.

Now Balboa, you'll never get me to say a negtive thing about Balboa--NO WAY! :)


DMoriarty

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2004, 08:55:15 PM »
I dont get the repeated redan reference for 3.  Isnt the green set far below the tees?  Isnt there a big backstop behind  the green (at least the right side)?   Tommy, I really doubt that Billy Jr. was trying to make a redan.  Are you sure he was even familiar with the concept of the redan?  
 
I guess I understand why 3 and 14 stand out, but I think it is quite a stretch to call them anything other than solid golf holes.  I dont think the case has been or can be made for world class, but I am willing to listen.  

While they may be the best of the lot, these two holes have the same shortcomings (IMO) as much of the course:  Basically, I dont think that the features or green complexes have much functional or aesthetic connection to the flow of the land.  

Take 3, for example.  It perches near the edge of a giant and abrupt break in the land, and all the ground around the green naturally slopes toward the edge.  Yet the green is cut against the grain, sloping away from the precipice, giving the green area a concave, half-bowled feel, in opposition to the giant convex fingers jutting out toward the Pacific.  

I have a similar issue with the tee shot on 14.  Again, here we are on the edge of the continent, and it seems that the golfer should feel that way.  Yet the corner bunkers are set above the natural flow of the land, almost creating an inside safety net or cushion.   Even the green complex is elevated(as is the area behind the right greenside bunker), setting it apart from the flow of the land. . . . And a concave green (low in the middle/front, higher on the sides/back)  on convex land.  

Wouldnt the tee shot have been more interesting if, for the right angle, the golfer would have had to challenge the edge instead of flirting with a containing bunker?   Arent there plenty of inland courses which allow them to flirt with containment bunkers?  

As I have said, this problem exists, IMO, throughout the course.  No connection to what is going on with the land. . . . Take the new back tees, sticking out well above the ground like tombs, often blocking the ocean view for all but those playing the tips. . . .  The seventh fairway sloping severely left to right, riding the edge to yet another point, yet the green is again built up and above the flow, the tilt of the earth being neutralized and the pull of the distant ocean nullified.  You get the picture.  

Couldnt most these golf holes exist in Indiana?  Is there any chance we would consider them world class or excellent if they did?  

Quote
But in the end, it's all about enjoyment, and if I enjoy the golf at Torrey Pines, how can anyone argue with that? It is somewhat of an acquired taste, and I wouldn't skip my next chance to play Riviera to go there, but it is worth playing, and if you find yourself disliking the architecture or playing poorly...be thankful that the views and climate are what they are!

Chris B.  

I think this is an accurate summation of the way many feel about the course. Even me, sometimes.   And you are right, no one can argue with you about this.  But doesnt this cut both ways?  
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 08:55:47 PM by DMoriarty »

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2004, 10:19:39 PM »
Tommy;

I could never understand your contention that something better could be built just utilizing the South, but if you were talking about using both courses to do it, I'll agree that maybe they could have produced a superior product. But there just is not enough room to do anything better on the existing property, and using both courses was politically out of the question. Everyone laments the lack of a hole which uses a carry over the canyons, but I just don't see where that can be done. By the way there are two tees to the left of the one used on the par 3 16th (by the nursery green) that provide a spectacular carry over the canyon, although the hole is probably a little shorter from there. Maybe they'll be used in the Open; I checked them out on Sun. and it's obvious they haven't been used yet. The bunkering is rather unspectacular to say the least. On reason, I think is that most great bunkers achieve their fame by being cut into a nice piece of natural topography. Rees' bunker style here seems consistant with his work at MPCC Dunes, Santa Luz and Bethpage, they're just not as spectacular, not because of how they're built but where they're built. As MacKenzie said: "put the bunkers on the hillocks, not the hollows". But how do you do this on a site with no great features to work with?

I totaly agree on the sad influence on the design inficted by the USGA. I think the reason that Rees chose to elevate the front portions of all the existing pushup greens is to fulfill the USGA's mandate that greenside bunkers be deeper. It is true that none of the greens flow with the land like David would like to see, but when the land is virtually flat, building a green that flows with it would seem to be a prescription for mediocrity. Again the mandate for flatter greens which can support the higher speeds of the Open made them flatter, with little chance of building one that slopes away from the golfer. The 22 yard wide fairway requirement gives the designer little chance to route a fairway close enough to the canyon edge to be safe for public play, but challanging for the world class player.

To answer David's original question the real difference before and after is the difficuly of the iron shots. Hitting the right section of the tri-sected green requires a much higher degree of accuracy than was previosly required. Of course these shots are harder when you have a 3 iron in your hand instead of a 7 iron, isn't that what many people clamour for: seeing pros hit an occasional long iron? The driving requirements are the same as they've always been: hit it long and hit it straight. Teh 4th green is downright scary, the pros hate it! The lobe on the left hand cliff side is 1 foot lower then the right half and shooting for this section is almost foolhardy. A putt from the right down the slope is very hard to get close, this is cliff edge stuff that has not been very well accepted though.

As for making the 3rd a Redan my take is doing it with Kikuyu seems counterintuitive. I love a Redan as much as anyone, the 7th at Barona is a great example because you can chase a low draw to the back pin. But why build a hole that calls for a runup where no one will attempt the shot? Look how the Kikuyu ruined the strategy at the 4th at Riviera. There is by the way a big difference with the maintenance of Kikuyu at Torrey and Riviera. Each Oct. they strip it to parade rest and thatch the Kikuyu at Torrey and then overseed with rye. This sends it into dormancy until the weather warms up again in July. As you know May and June are rather cool due the the morning marine layer of cloud cover. At nearby Coronado they don't touch the Kikuyu and have a cushy green surface year round; I suspect this is the case at Riviera. I play in the SD City Am each year in the first 2 weeks of June and there is no Kikuyi to be found, and what's left of the rye is pretty spent by then. If the USA wants deep Kikuyu rough they wiil probably have to change the current maintenance practices.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

CHrisB

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2004, 10:25:06 PM »
DaveM,
Yes it does. I can only say what I like/dislike about the course, and fully consider and respect the observations of those who see it differently, recognizing that there's really no "right" or "wrong" answer!

DMoriarty

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2004, 12:21:57 AM »
Chris,

True . . . but also really not much to talk about if we base our opinions about gca purely on whether we enjoyed the experience.  
_________________________

Sorry for the quality, these were taken in the dark . . .

The 16th from the usual tee.


The 16th from near the left 'tee.'  (I wasnt sure it was even a tee, but thought it should have been.)


Again.


Thomas_Brown

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2004, 01:19:21 AM »
I think #7 & #17 are good holes.
Not excellent, not world class.
#7 - Interesting tee shot, awkwardly good second shot, interesting pitching options, boring bunkering and green construction.
#17 - Fantastic teeshot w/ several options.
Interesting hole locations.

I agreed w/ DMoriarty's earlier assessments of TPS.

Tommy N - No way is #3 a redan.
IMHO - I don't think redans should be downhill.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2004, 06:11:04 AM »
Thomas, and why is that? What about LACC#11? You don't think thats a Redan? (albeit a "Nader")

Seth Raynor's Redan at Yale is just as downhill as TP-S #3. Why even the greatest Redan of them all at the National looks downhill! (But according to Uncle George, isn't.)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2004, 06:14:38 AM by Tommy_Naccarato »

TEPaul

Re:Tory's pine for Torrey Pines
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2004, 09:05:09 AM »
Tom Pernice and Dennis Paulson publicly absolutely slammed the Rees Jones redesigned Torrey Pines! They absolutely slammed Rees Jones too!

Would any of you fellows say that was UNFAIR or BIASED of them? One certainly could not say they haven't played the course and don't know what they're talking about!

Both of them claim he absolutely ruined a perfectly good golf course!

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