[JC Urbina]

John  One of the most important things I learned at the Valley Club while working on the bunkers for 5 years was the complexity of golf course architecture.  The reason that modern golf course architecture is so repetative is that architects take individual holes and concentrate all of there energy making that hole stand alone on its merits, which is ok but old timers like Mackenzie used a series of holes to make up a complex puzzle.  When ever someone calls me and says they are going to the Valley Club I always tell them not to look at the individual bunker but look at the complex of bunkers and see how the intersect lines as they cross the fairways.  I usually tell them to look at Hole # 5 as the example.  Its so simple its brilliant.  When we were restoring Pasatiempo and Claremont fall of 05, I noticed many of the same intersecting lines and how they kept falling into place, it's no coincidence.  Look closely at the recently done 7th at Pasatiempo or the 18th at Claremont  don't walk down the center of the fairway walk from side to side its unbelievable.  When we were restoring the 18th at Claremont last year I marked out the bunker complex before Brian Schneider started to restore them.  I showed the club the one bunker behind the 18th green that completed the puzzle.  They decided not to restore that bunker because we would have had to tear out some of the tennis courts and a cart path.  But if we could have, the same intersecting lines would have showed up again just because of one bunker sitting all by itself behind the green.   If you walk around the 6th and 7th fairways at Pasatiempo long enough you will pick up another interesting fact about Mackenzie, but I will let you figure that one out by yourself.  It has kept me looking for more pieces to the puzzle.  Never boring.

[RJ_Daley]

Jim, could you explain what you mean by the "intersect lines"?  I don't get it.

[Michael Moore]

Mr. Urbina -

Are you talking about bunkers that are in play on more than one hole?

The fairway bunkers that are in play for two fairways at Wannamoisett, the greenside bunkers that are in play for two greens at Cape Arundel . . . you just don't see that anymore . . . is it such an obvious, profound and gorgeous use of bunkers . . .

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Michael, While I quite enjoy exactly the same thing your talking about, especially at the Valley Club where it happens between holes in several locations, I think Jim is conveying how the bunkers intersect with one another in line, or in this case, "tying-in."

As Tom and Jim both have explained, MacKenzie, and Hunter for that matter seemed to be on to something in that regard, and Evan is correct abouthow your eye sort of gets directed looking at that intersecting line. There just can't be a better explanation for the infamous "Behr-ian" Line of Charm, (in this case MacKenzie/Hunter) when seeing it in person. Your just sort of attracted to that line like a dog following a bone!

I also think that is one of the problems here, unless you know what your looking at in this image, it just doesn't work the same as when your there to see it in person. Everything just seems to fit!

Thanks Jim Urbina for posting!

[Sean_Tully]

I have been documenting some of the interesting features of the bunkers that have been lost at Meadow Club. We have restored all the bunkers to their original positions(give or take a couple), but some of the more interesting features are lost due to trees blocking the view.

Meadow Club has a number of holes where the bunkering on one  hole appears to be in play or capture your eye as a continuation of the bunkering on another hole. What is remarkable is they get it to work for the hole that is in play and for the hole that is using another holes bunkering.

My favorite example is the the view from the 4th fwy. You can see the fwy bunkers that are short of the green tieing in with the greenside bunkers which carry onto the 5th and 2nd greens bunkering. When after the removal of some trees and the lack of leaves in the winter I could see the bunkers that are all the way over on the 14th hole and they were on either side of the eden bunker on the 5th hole. This floored me. These guys really took their work to another level and spent the time to make things like this work and trick your mind or at the least grab your attention as it did mine. Here is a picture from the 4th fwy that shows the view of the 4th from between the two fwy bunkers that are just out of view.



Here is a photo during the winter and with some good eyes you can make out the eden bunker on the 5th green you can see the two bunkers on either side.


I need to get better pictures to convey the concept better and see what I can do about some tree removal. They do not impact play too much (15th yes) and they still allow for an intimate feel between the holes. These sight lines as already mentioned by Josh and Jim are definately a feature of MAckenzie and Hunter courses and should be restored as such.

Josh your mention of the use of the back bunker on 15 for the continuation of the fwy bunkers is a very good reference. It is very similar to the fwy bunker on the 15th at Meadow that would have been a continuation of the fwy bunker on the 6th.

Tully

[Sean_Tully]

One of my favorite golf holes. I saw the light on that fwy. I have a tendancy to hit a draw so, standing on the 4th tee at Pasa I was ready to let her rip. I hit the ball to the left edge of the fwy. As I walked up the fwy to my friends ball that was next to the bunkers(this was before they were restored) I started heading to my ball on the other side of the fwy. I was stopped in my tracks as the bunker short and left of the green started to hide the green from view. Very cool. The restored hole is a lot better as the bunkers on the right in the fwy were shifted closer to the tee and to the left slightly(I may get corrected). The green was expanded in the front and to the back left if memory serves me right.

Tully

[T_MacWood]

The bunkers are obviously great but what stands out in that aerial are the shapes of those greens. MacKenzie built a lot of very narrow greens and eccentricly shaped greens often with sharp angles. I suspect those greens intensify the strategic requirements of the hole. Has the size and shape of those greens been preserved?

[ForkaB]

Sean

Thanks for the pictures and the thoughts.  My experience with MacKenzie courses is that they fool you once, but are very readable the second time around (regardless of where you have played your shots on your iniital visit).  My take on this is that they are tours de force, but not particularly interesting (from the point of view of golfing strategy) on repeated play.

Maybe this is becuase camouflage (in a military sense) only has to (or in fact can) work once.

His bunkers are pretty, I will concede.

[Adam Clayman]

When I spoke with Roger the super last year, he said he was embarking on returning the green sizes to their original size. We only inspected one of the greens, but, it was clear what he meant was increasing the greens surface out to their original fill pads. I asked him about the irrigation heads that abutted the greens, he said they would be moved.

[ed_getka]

This could end being the thread of the year. Keep it coming guys.

Has any work been done on the bunkering at Pasa on #6 in the last couple of years? Something was different when I was there last month, but I couldn't put my finger on it.

[Tom Huckaby]

This could end being the thread of the year. Keep it coming guys.

Has any work been done on the bunkering at Pasa on #6 in the last couple of years? Something was different when I was there last month, but I couldn't put my finger on it.

Ed - the green was expanded, particularly in back, but also on the sides to meet the edges of the bunkers - I don't think anything was done to the bunkers themselves though.  But perhaps T. Doak will see this and explain.

Here's a pic from last fall, showing the expansion:



The darker colored part - in front of the handsome devil in the pic - was new sod last fall.  It went all the way around.  So if you hadn't played Pasa in awhile, 6 green would look very different to you... as would its surrounds.

TH

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   What about that fairway bunker short right of the green, anything done to that?

Interesting about the green being expanded. Last month I went long and was thinking I had never noticed how the green fell off in the back before.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - aha!  I do seem to recall
that being added back in... that is,
it wasn't there for many years, now is...
or something like that.  Damn short-term memory loss.

 

[Bill_McBride]

One of the most important things I learned at the Valley Club while working on the bunkers for 5 years was the complexity of golf course architecture.  The reason that modern golf course architecture is so repetative is that architects take individual holes and concentrate all of there energy making that hole stand alone on its merits, which is ok but old timers like Mackenzie used a series of holes to make up a complex puzzle.  When ever someone calls me and says they are going to the Valley Club I always tell them not to look at the individual bunker but look at the complex of bunkers and see how the intersect lines as they cross the fairways.  I usually tell them to look at Hole # 5 as the example.  Its so simple its brilliant.  

The other use of overlapping or intersecting bunkers on #5 is the way the bunkers far from the green on the right side, maybe 80 yards short, appear to be part of the same bunkers that are right at the front corner of the green.  It is a wonderful look, and can be completely confusing with regard to judging the distance.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

As someone familiar with the Montecito's operation pointed out about the employees; "All of these men are great family men and legal residents of this country"

As long as Ran continues to ask me to moderate, I will delete threads that I or others feel cross the line of racism.

Good point, Tim.  Maybe from Position A the bunkers look as if they are in play.  Somebody told me that Dr. MacK was into camouflage......

PS--what's the penalty for hitting one of the illegal aliens picking deer doodoo out of the bunkers on the right?

You get a swim across the Rio....the wrong way

[HamiltonBHearst]

Mr Naccarato

Thank you for attempting to explain architectural minutia in terms I can understand.  However, when I take my sailboat "The Hearst" out my crew tacks not tacts.  

Based on your involvement in the wonderful logo at a much admired GCA favorite, I would have thought you knew the difference.

When you come  back East I would love to take you for a sail and a round out at my "end of island" club.

[JC Urbina]

RJ Daly/ Tom
It is kind of hard to explain by words but a few minutes walking you around any of the courses I listed you would quickly understand.  Each one of the bunkers at different angles lines up with another bunker in the distance.  What I first noticed at The Valley Club some 9 years ago was that a bunker on the 5th hole 90 yards short of the green had a shape like a V.  This V when viewed from either the right side of the fairway or the left side of the fairway would line up with an opposing bunker in the distance.  Each cape and bay in the bunker would line up with another cape or bay in the distance. Last year at Pasatiempo when we were restoring some of the bunkers I noticed that the V was showing up again in front of the 7th green.  So I stood back in the fairway and sure enough the V worked to perfection again.  So I was convinced that the V was no fluke when I first noticed it at the Valley Club.  I have since being using that V configuration  on many occasions when I make suggestions to Tom.   Beechtree has a few.   I use to kid the asst supt at The Rawls course at Texas Tech if he could find all of the bunkers that had that bisecting appearance i would buy him lunch, he only found one but there are more.  Although the capes and bays are not in the bunkers at Sebonack, the V idea is in use but slightly adjusted.
Tom
We have restored all of the bunkers on the 6th hole at Pasatiempo, including the last one just put in ( Sept) front of the 6th tee.  Wait till you see how that one works into the mix.  The bunker that is about 60 yards short of the 6th green  was restored and that was the one that I was refering to when I made the suggestion to John to walk around the 6th and 7th fairways  and see how that puzzle worked.

[ForkaB]

As someone familiar with the Montecito's operation pointed out about the employees; "All of these men are great family men and legal residents of this country"

As long as Ran continues to ask me to moderate, I will delete threads that I or others feel cross the line of racism.

Good point, Tim.  Maybe from Position A the bunkers look as if they are in play.  Somebody told me that Dr. MacK was into camouflage......

PS--what's the penalty for hitting one of the illegal aliens picking deer doodoo out of the bunkers on the right?

You get a swim across the Rio....the wrong way

Ben

If my little throwaway line offended you, or anybody else on this site, I think it would be polite and proper for that person to let me know directly.  I might even have pointed out to that person that "illegal alien" is not a "race," so while the comment might have been politically incorrect sand maybe even offensive to some (for which I apologise), it was hardly "racist."

Hae a nice day!  

[Mark_Guiniven]

Mackenzie was a close observer of camouflage and other aspects of warfare, and a trained physician. Mock him all you like but that was his background.

As a physician I would say its fairly likely he had at least a basic understanding of how the human eye gauges distances. As a camoufleur he would have had an advanced understanding of how the military did it.

The technique known as 'dazzle' or disruptive camouflage that Tom Doak has mentioned here in the past was perhaps best incorporated into hulls of naval and civilian cargo ships during the WW1 battle of the Atlantic. If you're a U-boat gunner and you want to torpedo a moving ship you have to aim not at where the ship is, but rather where it will be when the torpedo intersects it. To 'zero in' on a distant target with any degree of accuracy you need to know three things: range, heading, and target speed relative to your own. The cubist patterns and other misdirective elements like false bow waves painted on the hulls were intended to confuse the gun crew's interpretation of those variables (they were looking through a coincidence scope trying to make two half images match up). It wasn't just about visually hiding the ship against the horizon to escape the enemy's attention.

USSOrizaba

Mackenzie wrote that the contrast between turf and certain bunker edges was useful in HELPING players gauge distance (p66 SoSA). My conclusion is that certain lines and edges around the green were the 'ship', whilst the seemingly superfluous bunkering was the 'dazzle', primarily there to upset the golfer, like the German gunner, from 'zeroing' in on the true visual cues. I think TommyN was on to it and he would know.

After WW1, navies developed radar and much of the human element was removed from gunnery. I guess the same thing has occurred in golf with yardage play and now rangefinders.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Hux,
I think you pretty much have nailed it. It's all about depth perception, where your eye instantly, if not instinctly takes you by seeing something that might deceive your perception.

The ways MacKenzie did it just wasn't with bunkering either. It's where he placed his golf holes. For instance on many of his holes, he would plan from a raised tee, uphill to a greensite. While it would look less uphill because of the rised teeing surface, it would actually be extremely uphill. Pasatiempo #3, 5, & 11; VCofM #8 & 15 would be perfect examples of this. Simply stated, they play longer then they look. the same can be said of downhill holes too, like Pasatiempo #4, #12, etc. Bunkers, strategically placed would add further depth-perception, like the bunker right of VCofM #2. From the fairway that bunker looks like its right in front of the right side of the green, when in all actuality its at least twenty yards in front of it.

That's deception. That's camoflauge.

I have to find it, but there is an old article my Dr. Mac which explains his camoflauge theories in regards to golf. As soon as I can find it, I'll post it.

[Michael Dugger]

Before even starting this thread I am firm in my belief that Barney knows exactly the purpose of the bunkers at Montecito Club.  

Why he starts threads of this sort--essentially dragging Mackenzie lovers out on the mat--is boring to me, that's all.

If you don't find Mackenzie's bunkers, both in form and function, to be some of the best ever you just don't get this stuff.



 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Michael,
 I just came home from seeing my beloved Dodgers close the end of their season out in a most ludicrous fashion...So blaming John would be a perfect way to pent my frustration!   (Just kidding John!)

Actually Michael, I think John does a good thing here, he is getting people to think, to understand, to write down what they think the bunker and their style mean. He has also gotten Jim Urbina and Tom Doak to post on the thread--the guys responsible for restoring the course, which knowing the course somewhat intimately before and after, they have done a very great job. The Valley Club may be one of the more romantic places to play the sport IF your in love with playing golf.

So, is John being condescending? I personally don't think so. I think he is brining up a point that certainly deserves constructive thought on one of the Sports great hidden gems.

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