[Geoffrey Childs]

Matt

Between those two courses I might play Lawsonia two times for each play at Shoreacres but I am more of a public course guy   The choice for me is decided by both the "fun factor" combined with the shot values and putting/short game options. Both courses have an abundance of thrilling and fun shots. While there are a number of Raynor courses where I could experience these options, Lawsonia has some of the wildest, bold and UNIQUE golf course architecture I can recall on any course.

You New Jersey guys should go out to Wisconsin with the powers that be at The Knoll and show them the possibilities!

[Matt_Ward]

Geoff:

There are no "powers that be" at The Knoll. The so-called "powers that be" have only slowly -- check that -- reluctantly gotten off the snide and get things moving there. If it wasn't for George B nothing would be done and the glories of The Knoll would be forever lost.

I would go a step further in regards to your answer on the split of rounds -- more likely 3 to 1 for me. Lawsonia is one of the best affordable public courses in the USA and the architecture there is indeed compelling and of high order -- I'd place it up there with Bethpage Black, Pac Dunes and Black Mesa as some of the finest public layouts (affordable that is) one can play.

Put Lawsonia in any major metro area and it would leap a minimum of 20-30 spots in terms of sheer recognition. How it misses out on a top 100 overall is puzzling -- especially when Shoreacres is rated 93rd by Digest. Golfweek also fumbles with Shoreacres at 27th (?) with Lawsonia at the 61st position. Like I said before -- having a tony North Shore address can do wonders for visibility and fanfare.

P.S. Geoff -- Morris County will be an eye-opener for you when we play it.

[Dan Kelly]

One other thing -- for full discloure are you a member of Somerset ?

Matt --

I'm sure Rick will answer your question politely, because that's the kind of guy he is.

But in my opinion, it's an insulting question, and uncalled for.

Dan

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Matt,

Are you saying Morris County where bunkers were added to the inside of the Punchbowl, thus destroying the intent of the hole, is a good example of Raynor's style?

Also, you list Pacific Dunes as affordable? What is your idea of of affordable? And if you consider it one of the best affordable courses, then Bandon Trails has to be included since it kicks Pacific Dunes butt without raising a sweat plus, no hand watering of bunkers is required to keep sand in place.

Anthony

[Matt_Ward]

Tony:

Yes, I like the bunker placements in the rear. Please tell me how they compromise the uniqueness of the hole?

Tony - try to tell me how the four par-4's you enconter from the 7th through the 11th are not superior holes. Ditto the uniqueness of the 1st hole and the wonderful nature of the way the 2nd hole plays? Or the redan par-3 13th. Or the wonderful finishing hole with the partially hidden closing hole?

Pac Dunes is quiet affordable given the nature of what the top tier clubs are now charging. I'm no suggesting Pac Dunes is as affordable as Van Cortlandt in the Brown but when you weigh what you get when compared to the likes of Shadow Creek, Whistling Straits, Pebble, etc, etc -- the course is a sheer bargain. I can name plenty of courses in the Vegas, Scottsdale, Florida area where you get clipped for golf that is far, far below what it provides.

PAC DUNES GREEN FEES ...

May-October                     November-April
Hotel Guest $195                  $75-150
Oregonian $250                    $75-150
Others $250                        $100-200
Replay $100                         $40-75
 
Tony, beg to differ on the Trails -- the course has a sleep-a-thon middle section starting from the 8th to the tee shot you have on #13. Great start -- no doubt. Wonderful ending -- also no doubt. If you think the totality of Trails is beyond Pac Dunes you've got plenty of convincing from my end to make.

One other course -- I would place as a "must play" public that's very reasonable given the quality of golf provided is Greywalls in Marquette, MI. Superb DeVries design and deserving of the company I listed before.

[Rick Shefchik]

Matt,

No, I am not, and have never been, and never will be (barring some sort of cataclysmic shift in the space-time continuum that suddenly deposits an enormous amount of money in my bank account) a member of Somerset. I just think it's a wonderful golf course.

Ranking Somerset #18 in Minnesota is laughable. I would put it in the top five, along with Hazeltine, Northland, White Bear Yacht Club and Interlachen. There are other fine courses in Minnesota -- some of which I have not played recently enough to fairly rank -- but those would be my personal preferences.

Regarding your last question -- if I understand it correctly -- I'm not qualified to answer, because I didn't play the course prior to the work done on it by other architects. From what I'm able to gather, however, the character is still mostly Raynor.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Matt:

It comprimises the uniqueness of the hole by failing to adhere to the original design. This was supposed to be a restoration, right?

$195 and $250 are not affordable to the general public. As long as golf as a whole thinks those prices are affordable, interest in golf will continue to wane.

Anthony

[Matt_Ward]

Rick:

No offense was meant in asking you about club membership as Dan suggested. It's just that there are people who have opined on clubs and they don't state the fact that they do have a membership at a club and with that one must judge their comments accordingly with that known item in tow.

Thanks for your comments / re: Somerset. I often find the Digest ratings to be completely misguided because there is a tendency for them to continue placing courses among the top of a listing when it's clear the best days are behind them.

Rick you said, "Regarding your last question -- if I understand it correctly -- I'm not qualified to answer, because I didn't play the course prior to the work done on it by other architects. From what I'm able to gather, however, the character is still mostly Raynor."

I listed your last quote because there are people in GCA land who only see "true" courses as ones that have not been touched or have been restored to the exact way they were from the get-go. I don't hold to that narrow line of acceptance. If a course still has the bulk of what made it unique from the start I can live with a few items (provided they are not extremely radical) being softened or altered.


Tony:

My good man -- you have to understand that affordability is based on what you get in return. If you believe that getting the kind of golf Pac Dunes provides should be in the neighborhood of $50 or less than you are in la-la land -- no disrespect partner.

I also understand that if some poor slob can't rub two nickels together then playing Pac Dunes or even Black Mesa will not be possible.

I look at affordabiluty based on more than just the base price -- I look at what a specific course provides versus what other high-end courses are doing. Pac Dunes is the real deal and when you throw in the off-season rates -- which is not a bad time to play the course and avoid the crowds you do get a good deal for your buck.

The reason golf continues to wane -- is that people don't have the time to play golf because it takes too long to play. You also have a number of courses who take the "me too" approach with their fees and they fail to provide any real sense of quality design to legitimize the expenditures in the first place.

Bandon Dunes is still a relative bargain and clearly a place for all die-hard golfers to visit at least once in a lifetime. I can name plenty of other locales in the USA that you would get far less in terms of the quality golf you see there and either pay as much, if not more, than what you get for your buck there.

In regards to Morris County -- I don't see the need for 10000% itemization of all aspects in order to appreciate the sheer bulk of the Raynor influence you see at Morris County. I can certainly appreciate and feel your passion for having the course be exactly in the form you suggested.

The 7th hole, IMHO, today is still one of the best holes in
NJ -- even with the bunker placements in the rear. Removing them would not make the hole any better from my perspective although Raynor fans -- like yourself -- will likely feel differently. Tony -- at the end of the day -- the sheer bulk of Morris County is still a testament to what Raynor originally provided. I would think you would agree with my last statement.

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