[michael j fay]

Lookout has some exceptional holes. I like 15 & 16, 3, 5 & 8 in particular.

Fishers has some as well. 11, 12, 13, 14 is a wonderful stretch as is 3, 4 & 5.

Yale has some great holes as well. 1, 4, 8, 9, 10 and 13 stand out in my mind as well above the average.

Yale is the most difficult of the bunch. Wind can wreak havoc on all three, but more havoc at Fishers and Lookout than Yale.

Tough to pick the "best". Also in the running are Foxchapel, Yeomans and Shoreacres.

My vote goes to the Hotchkiss course on the stenghth of the 6th green alone.

[TEPaul]

GeorgeB:

Were all the courses Macdonald was involved in known as "Macdonald/Raynor" courses? I am aware that there were many courses that were just Raynor courses that Macdonald had virtually nothing to do with. I guess the question is, where there any courses that were just Macdonald without any Raynor involvement?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Smith,

As a first time poster with a "Go Bengals" my guess is this crew will not fall in line with your thesis without a little evidence.

[Mike_Sweeney]

B

In Ran's review from 2000 he states, "In judging Camargo, many people seem willing to overlook the von Hagge bunkers that are completely out of character on (in particular) a Seth Raynor course. If Doak and his Renaissance Design Firm were allowed to complete their restoration, then Camargo would indeed be worthy of the lofty praise associated with a course considered one of the fifty best in the world. However, until the restoration is complete, the authors feel a tinge of regret as to the slow progress."

Has this ever been finished by Doak? I know that Mark Chalfant feels the same way as you, and he has seen Fishers and Yale.

Mark???

PS. To be honest, I had to Google Carson Palmer to remind me who you were talking about.  

[Matt_Ward]

I've had the pleasure in playing a number of Raynor designs and if the big three are considered:

Camargo
Fisher's Island
Yale

I'd go with Camargo -- Fisher's is indeed wonderful but gets a number of brownie points because of the spectacular views. The gap between them IMHO is about the same space between Affirmed and Alydar.

Less so I would highlight the qualities of Fox Chapel. Lookout Mountain and to a tad lesser extent Morris County in my "neck of the woods."

If people really see Shoreacres as a top tier Raynor layout then they are really straining because the top three above offer far more in terms of strategic interest and overall design brilliance.

[Matt_Ward]

B Smith:

I have opined previously that "land / terrain" is the first among equals for me when I review / assess courses. I would dare say the quality of the land is no less than 60% of my area of starting emphasis.

There's a famous line attributed to Will Rogers when he was asked why land is so important? His retort -- "because they don't make anymore of it."

I look at the type / character of the land as the beginning clue on what motivated people in the first place. For example, I don't doubt that there quality holes at Shoreacreas but the overall land is a snooze for me and you can find better replica holes that Raynor designed at the other courses I and others have mentioned. However, since it's in the Chicago area it does get a bit more hoopla.

Camargo is blessed with a superb site. It is miles beyond such drab layouts like nearby Coldstream which for a time was rated ahead of course by Digest and a few other pubs.

I enjoy the ebb and flow of the terrain and the manner Raynor used the site at Camargo. Boredom is a word I would never remotely apply to Camargo. No doubt many clubs have made errors over the years -- some of that has come from ignorance of club leadership thru the hiring of people who simply overlayed their own fingerprints on the original design.

Raynor clearly used the same template for holes in many of his designs. With that being said -- the differentiator for me at least -- is what sites had the better terrain in order to more fully encapsulate his clear talent. With that said -- Camargo and Fisher's Island best represent that with Yale just a tad behind them.

[Noel Freeman]

[quote author=Matt_Ward I look at the type / character of the land as the beginning clue on what motivated people in the first place. For example, I don't doubt that there quality holes at Shoreacreas but the overall land is a snooze for me and you can find better replica holes that Raynor designed at the other courses I and others have mentioned. However, since it's in the Chicago area it does get a bit more hoopla.


Whoa Whoa Partner!  Shoreacres' overall land is a snooze!   I regret that Seth Raynor had only one life to give for golf architecture.. How could any course that encapsulates those ravines be deemed a snooze?  I will concur that holes 1,7,9 and 18 are over flat land but the ravines make delicious work out if holes like 11-13 and especially 15!  The course is as similar to the Addington on the back 9 with its swashbuckling style as I've seen globally.  Furthermore, holes like #2 and #3 have tremendous character given the use of the small creek on the property.  Then you get to the par 3s which in my eye are terrific with the Eden being the weak link.  The Redan and the Biarritz are stars (as good as NGLA and FI respectively--no) but pretty damn good as any other Raynor I've seen (I would name the redan at Piping Rock my 2nd favorite).. I can see where people could be mixed on the short-- the drop shot is inspiring to me and that green being so big has a lot of pin placements to challenge you--it isnt the 6th at NGLA but still very unique..

[Matt_Ward]

Noel:

How bout the first few holes and the lame finisher at Shoreacreas buckeroo ? You mention that but quickly move away from the overs side of the lackluster equation.

Let me remind you -- I did say there were a few holes of quality and clearly the ravines does play a role but if you are making the course out for sainthood -- I mean it's rated by some as top 50 layout then you've been sipping too much Kool-Aid.

Noel -- don't know if you have ever seen / played Camargo but it's a good bit beyond what you see at Shoreacres. Like I said -- being in Chicago and having a tony North Shore address can do wonders for a club's reputation.

Put Camargo in the same location or I dare say in the metro NY area and the place would be pushed far higher than it is today.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Matt

I too loved Shoreacres in good part because it has some totally unique golf holes that also are in my opinion world class. In some cases the dull land was used for an uninspiring opener (but well cross bunkered so you still need to be on your toes) but the 10th is an excellent Road Hole with OB right and an excellent green complex. Fishers Island has its set of unique and inspiring golf holes such as 3-5, 8, 10 etc. but so to does Shoreacres.  Those moments of greatness and the thrilling shots required to play the holes makes this a must play in my mind.

I know little of Camargo except that Tom Doak claims it is among the handfull of "truly restored" golf courses for ANY architect and that Pete Dye thinks its Raynor's best. Usually Ran's reviews convey these atributes but I did not get that sense from his Camargo piece.  I feel more love from him for FI and Yale!

[Noel Freeman]

Matt- I've never been to Camargo so I can't compare but I've seen a fair bit of Raynor.. There are 18 holes at Shoreacres, I mentioned the 4 holes that were the least inspiring to me.  They maybe over flattish land but lets go into detail, shall we?

#1 features a prosaic tee shot but anything in the rough still has to flirt or be somewhat wary of the cross bunkers that play a visual distortion.. As a par 4 this would be an even stronger hole from the mental side.

#7 requires a short carry over one of the ravines and then is on flat lands but the green is one of the best contoured on the course.

#9 features two bunkers on the left that will bite anyone trying to cut off the dogleg (unless you hit it onto #10 like I did).. But lets say you go left, you then have to visually flirt with a bunker (and carry it) short left.  The right side of the hole is heavily bunkered down that side as well.. It is a challenging hole and the bunkering makes it one.

#18 is similar in ethos to 9 with a big left hand hazard.  If somehow you can carry it you get a nice kick forward and can go for the green in two.

Frankly, I found even the flat holes full of strategic interest, they just were not over rolling land.. Seth did a great job keeping them fun to play with his bunkering which is how it should be!

[Gib_Papazian]

Ran,

Shoreacres and Fishers are the easy choices, however I am going to toss in one that somehow gets forgotten:

Creek Club.

And another one not blessed with fabulous terrain, still represents the kind of golf I hope to play in my dotage:

Westhampton.

The problem with all of this begins with the question of 'how much of clubs like Piping Rock are really Raynor?'

That sgtated, Macdonald loved to drink and carouse and left much of the detail work on all but NGLA to Raynor. Seth followed the master's instructions religiously on all his solo work, so perhaps C.B. ought to get co-design credit on *all* Raynor layouts.

Where does one begin and one end, really?

Here is an interesting one: Pick out a composite course of the best of Raynor's template holes. (NGLA does not count)




 

[TEPaul]

It seems one of the indicators about the courses Macdonald was actually involved in that he must have been most interested in were the ones he mentioned in his book which was apparently written around 1926 after which it seemed he lost interest in architecture other than working on NGLA.

Those he mentioned at length in his book were only:

NGLA
Lido
Yale
Mid-Ocean

Does this mean he may've had more to do with those or more interest in those than the others he's nominally believed to have had to do with? There's little question, though, that he certainly had a hand in some ways in Piping Rock, St Louis, The Creek, Sleepy Hollow et al.

Also, at what point did he give it up altogether, other than continuing to work on NGLA?

[Rick Shefchik]

I'd like to see more posters play Somerset in St. Paul before making up their definitive Raynor Top 5 lists.

[Matt_Ward]

Noel:

You are at a considerable disadvantage since you have not played Camargo.

With all due respect -- Shoreacreas has plenty of dull uninteresting holes -- I count in the range of 5-6 such holes. That's a 1/3 of the layout at minimum. And yes I do admit there are others that are far better but being "far better" doesn't mean they then equate to the level of what you see at places such as Camargo, Fisher's Island or Yale or even Fox Chapel for that matter.

The issue buckeroo is that Seth Raynor copied holes time after time after time. If one really believes Shoreacres is a top 50 course in the USA then they have really seen too little IMHO to make such a bold calculation. I would urge you to visit Morris County in Convent Station (NJ) and you will see the Raynor influence on better property.

Noel -- you say the flat holes do provide "strategic interest." Does that make them holes someone who lives beyond 100 miles of the place should leap into their car and hustle to play them. Not for me.

Frankly do you really see Shoreacres as being on par with FI or Yale? It's not really that close and I dare say you would admit that.

P.S. If you want to play the game of switching holes from par-5's to par-4's -- such as the 1st -- we can do that for other courses as well. Played as a par-5 it's dullsville -- ditto the closer. Heck, the finishing hole at CP is world class in comparison to the ending drama-less finisher at Shoreacres.

[Matt_Ward]

Rick S:

You mention Somerset - can you outline if you have played the other Raynor courses mentioned in this thread and how you would compare / contrast them.

Thanks ...

[Noel Freeman]

Noel:

You are at a considerable disadvantage since you have not played Camargo.

With all due respect -- Shoreacreas has plenty of dull uninteresting holes -- I count in the range of 5-6 such holes. That's a 1/3 of the layout at minimum. And yes I do admit there are others that are far better but being "far better" doesn't mean they then equate to the level of what you see at places such as Camargo, Fisher's Island or Yale or even Fox Chapel for that matter.

The issue buckeroo is that Seth Raynor copied holes time after time after time. If one really believes Shoreacres is a top 50 course in the USA then they have really seen too little IMHO to make such a bold calculation. I would urge you to visit Morris County in Convent Station (NJ) and you will see the Raynor influence on better property.

Noel -- you say the flat holes do provide "strategic interest." Does that make them holes someone who lives beyond 100 miles of the place should leap into their car and hustle to play them. Not for me.

Frankly do you really see Shoreacres as being on par with FI or Yale? It's not really that close and I dare say you would admit that.

P.S. If you want to play the game of switching holes from par-5's to par-4's -- such as the 1st -- we can do that for other courses as well. Played as a par-5 it's dullsville -- ditto the closer. Heck, the finishing hole at CP is world class in comparison to the ending drama-less finisher at Shoreacres.

Matt Matt Matt-- Do you have FUN on a golf course anymore?? b/c Shoreacres is FUN!!!!  Does it have Yale's property--no!, Is it the epic setting of FI--No!.. It is just fun to play.. Look at the non template Raynor holes like #11 and #13 as well as #2 and #15.. All fun and they may be the best holes on the course....I'd sure as hell drive 100 miles to play Shoreacres non Raynor template holes inclusive of the ones that play over moribund land..  So that is at least a 7 if I speak Doak..

Fun fact for ya sweetycakes.. JB Holmes played Shoreacres with one of the gentleman I played with.. A Pro who has a 125mph swing and is longer than you Matt!  Anyway, what do you reckon JB shot on a poor defensively course such as Shoreacres that tips the scales at what 6500 yards? 60/61?  No, he shot 67 (3 under).. He tried to drive holes etc, had a ton of fun doing it, yet couldnt score there.. And when I played with the pro I talked about earlier  he was hitting it 50 yards past me and I am not that short and yet I think he was lucky to break 76..

FI would be the 1st CB/Raynor I would play after NGLA.. No doubt.. But if Yale and Shoreacres were equidistant from my house, I would debate them.. Why?  B/C Shoreacres is a better representation of Raynor in its present form.. That said, I'd probably play Yale even though I think Shoreacres has superior Redan, Eden holes..

[Rick Shefchik]

Matt,

I would love to, but I can't. I haven't played the others under discussion. I have played Somerset a number of times, however, and I think it's good enough to merit inclusion in this discussion -- but it appears no one who's weighed in here so far has played it. How about you?

[Matt_Ward]

Noel:

You must be sipping some wonderful Kool-Aid brother.

Hold the phone - I NEVER said there weren't good holes at Shoreacres - I simply said you would find even better representations of the Raynor replicas at other tracks he designed.

One can have MEGA MORE FUN with the courses I named. I see you artfully skipped the part about Shoreacres being rated among the top 50 courses in the USA. A very wise retreat on your part. Not unless of course you would include it among your personal top 50 / 100 in the USA?

It's too bad you have not played Camargo -- likely neither have you played Fox Chapel or Morris County. They have everything and more from what you see with the Chicago layout -- save for the tony North Shore address.

If you think driving 100+ miles to play Shoreacres is OK -- then heck you would drive 1,000+ miles to play Camargo and a good bit more than a 100+ to play Fox Chapel or Morris County.

Give me a break about JB Holmes -- I can name instances where pros came to such layouts - see the 62 or 63 Mark Calcavechia shot WITH BORROWED CLUBS at Somerset Hills a few years back during the Boy's Club fundraiser event there. Let's also not confuse the hitting power prowess of Holmes with him thinking smartly when playing.

Shoreacres as moments -- but you seem to dismiss the fact that a course cannot be world class with that many indifferent and I would add the word "dull" to describe the 5-6 hole instances there.

Noel, I love the ploy partner when you say well since the par-5 1st is not that good we can convert it into a long par-4. You could not have made my argument for me if you tried willingly.

[Matt_Ward]

Rick:

I can kick myself the several times I have been in town for events at Hazeltine National and had the opportunity to play Somerset but never have thus far.

Can you post a hole-by-hole yardage guide and the type of Raynor hole each presents (e.g. redan, cape, etc, etc).

Can you tell me how you would stack Somerset up against Interlachen which I have played?

Frankly, the layout at Interlachen didn't really stir the blood for me. It's more about celebrating what Jones did there than for the architecture.

[Noel Freeman]

Matt

1) The JB Holmes thing was to show the course is not that easy despite being short..

2) About the 1st hole I was trying to say psychologically if you didnt have a shot in hand here it would be a much tougher task.. Doesnt change the fact that the cross bunkers play havoc with 2nd shots.

3) Yes I would love to see Camargo and Fox Chapel to compare but I have not

4) Shoreacres is top 50 by Digest? In my personal ranking it would be in top 100 but just barely...

Let me ask you this? If you think Shoreacres is over dull land what are your thoughts on Chicago GC?!!??!?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Rick

I checked out Somerset CC using Google earth and I could barely recognize any Raynor out there. You could see a vestage of a biarritz but it appears the tee has been moved to play from an angle. I'd love to see an old aerial for comparison.

Golfcourse.com states - "Several designers have done renovations over the years, most recently by Geoffrey Cornish and Brian Silva in 1979."

I think it needs some TLC.

Matt - Shoreacres is absolutely in my Top 100

[Rick Shefchik]

Geoff and Matt,

I believe Stanley Thompson did some work there around 1950 -- there's an architectural map up in the locker room that details the work, but I've only had a chance to glance at it for a minute.

Cornish and Silva turned the par-3 14th into a 319-yard dogleg par 4, with a diabolical green (one of Dan Kelly's favorite holes).

What else remains that's identifiably Raynor? Most of it, I'm guessing, though the hills at the back of the property create a couple of holes that you might not see on other Raynor courses, especially the 500-yard second hole that plays more like 575 because it is so severely uphill. But that hole has a punchbowl green.

There's a wonderful Redan at Somerset that probably hasn't been touched -- the 185-yard fourth hole. Huge green, slopes away to the back left, easily the finest hole of its type I've played (and I don't mean that in the Gary Player way...)

The 7th hole, I believe, would fit Raynor's Alps template -- at least, it reminds me of the photos I've seen of Camargo's 7th.

The 8th is an Eden with a spine running through the middle of the wide, shallow green from front to back.

The 10th is an uphill Cape (though not a dramatic one), and one of the best holes on the course, with a green sloping sharply from back to front.

The 11th, according to Jeff Brauer (as told to Dan Kelly -- I missed this conversation by about 10 minutes, arriving late to the round) is the old Road hole, with the left greenside bunker pulled away from the green a bit.

The 12th is a downhill Biarritz of 220 yards.

If there can be said to be Short at Somerset, it is probably #17, 160 yards downhill with bunkers left and right of the green and a steep, small tiered shelf at the back of the green.

Matt, I agree with you about Interlachen. I'd play it any time, but I'd choose Somerset first. For one thing, it doesn't feel as hemmed-in by trees as Interlachen -- it relies more on the ground features to provide its test.

Maybe Jeff Brauer will step in here and contribute his observations about what remains of Raynor at Somerset. What is there, no matter who gets credit for which features, is a fine golf course.

[Rick Shefchik]

For Matt Ward, Somerset (St. Paul, Minn.) hole by hole yardages (from the back tees, naturally):

1 - 354 (straight, uphill)
2 - 500 (steeply uphill, punchbowl green)
3 - 418 (dowhill tee shot to dogleg right fairway)
4 - 185 (Redan)
5 - 391
6 - 429
7 - 366 (Alps?)
8 - 157 (Eden)
9 - 518 (dogleg right over crest of a hill)

10 - 384 (Cape)
11 - 404 (Road)
12 - 225 (Biarritz)
13 - 513 (dogleg right, second half of fairway is lower)
14 - 319 (new hole, uphill dogleg right)
15 - 421
16 - 478 (uphill par 5, dogleg left, plateau green)
17 - 166 (Short)
18 - 420 (New back tee plays about 450)

Tot - 6648 (w/ new 18th tee, about 6680)

[scott anderson]

I have the good fortune to play out at somerset.  we did some nice bunker work this fall.  Seth would be happy that his spirit is returning to this great track.

[Matt_Ward]

Rick:

Do you believe Digest has it right to have Somerset be rated no higher than 18th in the state ?

If not -- where would you place it among those state courses you have played ?

One other thing -- for full discloure are you a member of Somerset ?

In regards to Interlachen -- it reminded me of the manner in which Baltusrol presents itself. A well-connected club to USGA brass but far from being compelling on the architecture meter.

Final item -- if the course has had other "hands" on it -- has the totality of those changes really shifted the facility to what is there now ?

Thanks ...

Noel:

Partner -- please help me stop laughing if you reference the degree of difficulty of Shoreacres by the way JB Holmes played it. You make it sound like the trio of Nelson, Hogan and Snead were there. Since his win in Phoenix JB has been AWOL for the most part.

Back to Shoreacres -- let me point it this way - place Shoreacres in the greater NY metro area and it would be LUCKY to get a footnote of attention. It's quite similar to what Tom Doak said about Cherry Hills in Confidential Guide -- place the Colorado-based course in the greater Philadelphia area and it would be lucky to sniff the juice as the 5th best course there.

Noel -- I don't know if time allowed for you to get over to Skokie but I would place that layout in a heart beat ahead of what you see with Shoreacres. Better overall routing and better degree of compelling architecture from start to finish.

I see Chicago in a much better light than Shoreacres although I would not place it among the top 50 as many pubs do -- it might sniff a placement as one of top 100 but I'm not writing that in stone. Yes, the terrain there is quite subdued but I see the totality of the holes in a different light. One other thing -- the course came off quite well in the recent Walker Cup Matches played there this past summer.

Geoff:

Respect your opinion (just disagree with it / re: top 100 for Shoreacres) -- IMHO, you need to play a much deeper array of courses. I've got to get you on Morris County GC to see what I am saying.

Let me ask you this Geoff -- if you had 20 rounds of golf to play between Shoreacres and Lawsonia Links please tell me how the split would shake out?

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