[Jason Topp]

Although I do not have photographs, I thought I would post the yardage book picture of what I consider a wonderful par five.  



It is at Chaska Town Course in Chaska Minnesota and will be used as the second site for the stroke play portion of the 2006 US Amateur.  I'm not sure what grass is used for the rough, but it is very difficult to hit shots out of in the summer.

It is a reachable par five.  It plays at 470-500 yards between the white and black tees.  The prevailing wind is left to right, sometimes helping a bit.

The tee shot is to a wide fairway that narrows at about 280 off the tee.  If the player wants to reach the green, there is some advantage to playing as close to the creek on the right hand side.  The choice is not an easy one because the ground near the creek slopes into the hazard.  By contrast, if one goes left, he may still hit the green in two by going over the trees (mature desiduals) for the second.  In the Amateur (assuming they do not build a tee farther back) I expect some long hitters to hit their tee shot to the right of the creek, which requires a 280-300 yard carry over trees.  

The best part about the hole is the second.  The green is wide and shallow.  Between the pond and the green is a steep bank.  The direct route requires a high, precise shot from around 200 yards to reach and hold the green.  A safer, but still aggressive play is to hit a shot of sufficient length to get to the green but well right.  A sharp slope left of the tree in the fairway (the picture does not really show the slope)  allows a shot to run along the ground around the bunker, leaving a simple chip shot up the length of the green.  The safest option is a mid iron to wedge range.  This option leaves a difficult pitch over water with the green largely hidden behind the bunker.  Because the ground surrounding the pond all slopes to the water, the water is much more in play for the second than it appears when you are hitting your shot.

To me this hole represents an ideal.  Every level of player has several options on each shot.  If you hit good shots it is a great birdie opportunity.  If you don't, you can make 7 real quickly.  It is also a hole where the options are not obvious the first time you play it.  You learn something new almost every time you play it.  

In order to retain its options, I suspect this hole should be lengthened by 2006, which they have room to do.
 

[Mark Brown]

Jason,

Nice looking hole. Arthur Hills design -- I did a little marketing for Hills and Chaska. We need more municipality courses like it.
It would be nice if they would take out the cart path crossing the fairway. Cheers.

[Jason Topp]

Selfishly, I like the cart path.  I can't fly it there but a friend of mine can.  With the slope it can send his perfect tee shot straight into the water.  

We get a bit competitive over two dollars.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Jason,
Looks like a good hole to me, plenty of strategic options, what looks like a good par 5 greem complex..I will agree with you on this..hopefully I will get the chance to play it next year under the gun

[Scott_Burroughs]

It's very similar to the 1st hole at Stoney Creek east of Greensboro, NC.

Turboe has played it.

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
You wouldn't like that hole, it is too much like #11 at Lehigh    On the other hand if they called both holes par fours, then you would think they are great  
Mark

[Jason Topp]

I've seen similar designs by Nicklaus, Hills, Jones and Cupp to name a few. There are a few in Colorado like this too. Ravines a chasms lend to this design.

Interestingly, the best hole at StarrPass ?5 or 6? (which course I generally don't care for) is of this basic design.

To me the distinguishing factor from the Starr Pass hole is that there are many more options for your second shot.  At Chaska, there is an aggressive/conservative option of using the ground countours to leave yourself an easy chip.  At StarrPass, you either go for it or lay up (and for me its always a lay up).

[Pete Buczkowski]

Jason,

From the layout it looks similar to the 18th at Jim Engh's new Lakota Canyon course.  Perhaps Matt Ward will chime in and give his take.

Pete

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
What hole are you looking at because I sure can't tell.  The one pictured here has a forced or positional layup off the tee for the big hitters (similar to #11 at Lehigh).  If you don't go for the green in two on the hole pictured (over the water just like at Lehigh), you layup over the hazard as in the hole pictured (just like you do over the hill at Lehigh).  You're third shot is a wedge over the water again in the hole pictured (similar to Lehigh).  The hole at Lehigh may be more penal but it is very dramatic and exciting to play.  

If the hole played as a par four, a guy like you would never lay up (your ego wouldn't let you)
Mark

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
I think we'll just agree to disagree on this discussion.  It's going to take too much time to educate you on the merits of temptation and strategy.  Ask Ran or someone who gets it if they have time to explain #11 to you  
Mark

[Donnie Beck]

Nice ground game I see.

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
Kinda like #13 at Augusta is that what you are saying?  I'm sure most "ordinary people" as you called them, go for that green in two as well
Mark

[TEPaul]

Jaaon:

The second half of that hole almost completely mimics the 12th hole at PVGC---almost everything about it is similar. Interesting idea to use a great short par 4 concept as the second half of a par 5 like that.

[Jason Topp]

Jaaon:

The second half of that hole almost completely mimics the 12th hole at PVGC---almost everything about it is similar. Interesting idea to use a great short par 4 concept as the second half of a par 5 like that.

Tom

I just looked at the pictures and description of the 12th at PVGC.  It definitely appears similar.  The nice thing about using this concept on a par five is that there is an added variable of providing extra reward for a good tee shot and punishing a bad one, without making the decision a clear one in either situation.

[Steve Lapper]

A very near and exceptional example of the par 5 design you describe is LACC North #8, a 561 yd (back tee), 548yd men's tee. There the slopes of the hill ,from left-to-right, on the approach shot help kick the ball down towards the creek/barranca but usually not far enough to leave a clean approach for a reachable 2nd shot (unless the drive is very agressive and down the pure right line). While there is no pon on the hole, it is more than amply replaced as a hazard by the dense thickery in the same position. The green is a tad more straighforward allowing for a well-struck and aimed low running shot to access it, but it's cant and slope rejects anything that isn't damn near perfect at that angle.

   All-in-all, that hole is a gem and nicely examples, in a very traditional and classic Thomas fashion, the strategy you so like.

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
Your description of #11 along with photos just makes me want to go grab my clubs  

One thing you failed to mention; from 220 or 230 yards in, the shot plays 30 or 40 yards shorter because of the drop.  It is a similar shot to #7 where I can hit a 5I from 210 yards (on flat ground that is 175 - 180 yard club for me).  You don't need to hit the ball all the way to the end of the fairway or longer on #11 to think about going for the green in two shots.  Distance control and position off the tee is crucial.  And that hanging lie adds to the interest because standing there with a 220 yard shot from the fairway with a hanging lie and knowing you can reach with a 4I makes you think!  For many more people than you say, it is tough on the ego to drop down and take out the wedge and conceed that slim chance of making a three.  But guess what, that is exactly the thought process that happens on most risk/reward short par fives.  What do guys lay up with at #13 at Augusta? Frankly it is no different club than you or I would lay up with when the hole is played from 475 -500 yards out.  

You never answered my question about how many "ordinary players" go for the green in two shots on #13 at Augusta?   By your definition, maybe that is not really a risk/reward hole either  

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
Are you losing your mind - #1 at Cherry Hills faces due West!  And last I checked (unless Fazio moved it since last April) the creek on #13 at Augusta runs directly in front of that green.  
Now I know why you struggle understanding the genius of #11 by Flynn  
Mark

[Scott_Burroughs]

Bill,
Are you losing your mind - #1 at Cherry Hills faces due West!  

'tis true (not that Mark wouldn't know, given his involvement there):

[Scott_Burroughs]

Next trip to CHCC, go take a quick look round and see the missed opportunity and the overwhelming number of "errors" - such as #1 into a.m. sun (From an elevated tee, yet!),  

Bill,

I can read, but I was more responding to Mark than you.

Let's agree on both points, to a point.  This sentence above does not refer to RHCC, and it's certainly unclear that you are responding solely to Mark, since you did not mention him in the entire post, and few know he has reasons to make a number of trips to CHCC.

But this is all Mucci-picking...

I trust you on RHCC's opening hole direction.

[Rick Shefchik]

Jason --

It's been a couple of years since I've played Chaska, but as I recall the trees dictate strategy in a major way on this hole. I wasn't as anti-tree at the time as I am now, but given the superb contours of the hole, wouldn't a little tree trimming improve it somewhat?

It is the best par 5 at Chaska, by far. The others I find madening because of the water hazards that either pinch or bisect that holes where your second shot would normally come to rest -- and there are no distance markers at, say, 300 yards away from the green to give you some idea of how long your second shot (your layup shot) should carry.

[Jason Topp]

Rick:

I think the trees help the hole.  On the left, they provide an incentive to get as far forward as possible because you have to carry them.  I also like the fact they make the shot blind unless you tempt the creek.

I also like the two trees on the right side because they add interest to the layup shot which would be real simple if you didn't have them.  If you are worried about chunking it in the hazard you can take extra club, but it puts the trees in play.

As to the other par fives, I think they are a bit of an acquired taste.  I agree with you that 18 is a bit goofy, but with repeat playing, you really have to make an aggressive/conservative decision with your tee shot and second because the bunkers tend to be right where you would hit it otherwise.  They have impoved 9 by getting rid of that "natural" area in play for the second shot and replacing it with ordinary rough.  I like seven.  The tee shot is wide open, but the second is interesting.   Because it is usally down wind there often is a chance to get there in two, even for me (I hit it about 250 and don't usually play the back tees).  The layup is odd at first sight, because of the bunker and the need to lay up left near the creek with the ball bouncing right to left.

Overall, I think the course has flaws, but I like the par fives.  15 is by far the best.

Incidentally - any courses open in Iowa?  I'm dropping my dog off there this weekend.

[Rick Shefchik]

Jason --

I believe a number of courses have been open in Iowa for several weeks, but that might change by Saturday. We're looking at 10 inches of snow, and I don't think Iowa is going to be spared.

By the time I finally play again, it's going to have been at least five months since I've hit a shot outdoors. I might as well have suffered an injury like Huckaby. Next winter, I think I'll get a knee replacement just to kill the time.

[Jason Topp]

Rick

Not good.  I might have to spend time with my relatives.

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
I'll let you off on the Cherry Hills point but you still don't get #11.  Most great holes take time to really figure out their genius.  Maybe you just haven't played it enough and need more time  Either that or else you're playing with too many 36 handicappers.  

Just don't take those players who can't appreciate it or think it's no fun to Pine Valley.  Goodness gratious, what would they think of #7 or #18 or half the other holes.  If they were raters they'd probably give PV a 0.  By the way, Flynn had a lot to do with Pine Valley.  Don't you think it makes sense he throw in one hole at Lehigh that was a little harder for the "ordinary golfer" but a great risk/reward challenge for the good ones
Mark

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
I assume you think #7 at PV is weak hole and a slog as well! You must, because is has far less options than #11 (which is a variation of #7 at PV) and there is no risk/reward factor.  You have no choice to go for that green on #7 in two.  

Regarding # of birdies; as a par four, #11 would be one hard golf hole to make a birdie on.  As a par five, it makes you think about gambling for that elusive eagle and you won't get one if you lay up.  Same analogy goes for #13 at AN.  

Must be a "fairness" thing with you Bill.  You'd never make as as GD rater      
Mark

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