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Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2003, 06:46:04 AM »
Tom MacWood & TEPaul,

You fellows have a dilema.

Tom MacWood seems to feel that Fazio had little involvement, with the in-house ground crew responsible for the result and TEPaul feels that Fazio and his entire Fazio organization was involved with the project and responsible for the result.

Tom MacWood feels that only CRAFTSMEN are capable of this work and TEPaul feels that it "ain't Rocket science" and that almost anyone can do it.

Have either of the two of you actually been involved in the design and construction of a bunker ?   Hands on ??

Tom MacWood, you equate maintaining a bunker as the qualifying factor to be able to design and build a bunker ??
That's a rather novel approach.  If that's the case why is it that more courses have had their bunkers ruined internally, then externally ?

If any ground/green crew can build exceptional bunkers, why all the fuss about those "specialists" who work for C&C, Gil Hanse and others ?  Why should anyone hire them when, according to Tom MacWood, the club's ground crew is perfectly capable of designing and building bunkers ?

Either any in-house ground crew can do it, or it takes specialists to do it.  You can't have it both ways.

You fellows take convenient, not consistent positions.

TEPaul,

To answer your question, I think they had were presented with a program, and supervised by the architect as the project progressed.

Tom MacWood,

Could you answer the questions I posed in the previous thread as well, thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2003, 07:11:34 AM »
Patrick:

Your post #26 is a pretty misleading and sort of ridiculous one. What exactly do you know about the design and construction of the short course at Pine Valley? What do you know about the crew of Pine Valley? Have you ever met any of PV's supers--any of PVs crew? Have you ever watched them do anything at all?

What you tend to do is take a specific and turn it into some kind of generality for your own convenience and your own particular argument.

Building good rugged bunkering takes an experienced eye and real knowledge of particular techniques, and that needs to get translated into a considerable amount of detail and handwork particularly in some of the latter stages menitoned above. It's not rocket science--it is a lot of work though and it certainly takes an artistic sense and touch--something that some architects either don't have or don't use but the truth of it is it's really more that some of the contractors don't do it half so well as others or half so well as the crews of certain architects or the crews of certain clubs.

You seem to imply we're saying if PVGC's crew does something well  logically any maintenance crew does--a pretty damn stupid conclusion on you part.

Regarding bunkering that one might consider natural in look both architecturally and grass-wise, have you ever spent time on site watching Gil Hanse & Co actually do it. Or have you spent time watching Doak & Co do it, or Coore & Crenshaw or Ron Prichard. Have you actually ever spent time on site watching any of those architects and their crews plan and build bunkering Pat? Maybe you've watched Von Hagge do it but why don't you tell us if you think there might be any differences in some of the bunkering we're talking about. My sense is you definitely have not seen any of those architects mentioned actually plan and build bunkering to say some of the things you do!

Where are you getting your information about Fazio, the PV crew and PV's short course anyway?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2003, 07:13:48 AM »
Pat
"Don't answer the questions in terms of relativity, answer them in finite numbers/answers."

How much time Pat?

As I said before I have no idea what occured at PV, I was under the impression the work was done in house.

"Have either of the two of you actually been involved in the design and construction of a bunker ?   Hands on ??"

Yes, I was an employee of the Ohio State U. GC when new mounds were constructed of the nutmeg grater variety #14-Scarlet and a new practice bunker was contructed on the old caddy yard (a yard I frequented as a kid). I'll let you be the judge of the results of my labors...based on your fuzzy eye for detail my bet is you would like my work.

Its in my blood my father was a greenskeeper for a few short years at Port Jefferson - I love greens crews.

Yes any in-house crew can do it with either excellent direction or an excellent model to emulate or both. Have I ever indicated that Fazio was not exceptionally talented?

What question on another thread?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2003, 07:28:28 AM »
Tom MacWood,

If you define craftsmen by their results, how would or could you advise a club to turn the work over to an untested crew with no previous experience, before the project is undertaken, before the results are in ?

TEPaul,

I'm a little hazy on the details, but could you let me know the courses in south Florida that C&C have built ?
While you're at it, let me know which ones Hanse, Prichard and the others you mentioned have built in south Florida ?

And, you're missing the point.  Tom MacWood claims that any green/grounds crew can build terrific bunkers, you seem to feel it takes specialists.  Your argument should be with Tom MacWood, I merely posed the questions and indicated that you can't have it both ways.

You, TE, can't say it takes specialists, and then agree with Tom MacWood, that any crew can obtain the same results.
Your position is inconsistent with your beliefs.
But, in a way, that is consistent with your previous posts  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2003, 09:55:17 AM »
Pat
I define a craftsman by his results, not by someone prejudices or by 'experience'. As I said before any in-house crew can do it with either excellent direction or an excellent model to emulate or both. You don't appear to have much respect for the maintence crew and their ability to carry out sensative work.

IMO the best route for a restoration is inhouse. Club personel are likely to do the extensive (time consuming) research and legwork to discover the architectural history of their club. They are likely to be conservative in what they do - often the best way to go IMO. They are likely to take their time and do the work carefully and deliberately. They are intimately familar with their course, its characteristics and unique features.

Outside agents often don't have the time to do the research. Outside agents have a tendenancy to leave their own mark or distinctive style - consciously or unconsciously (Pat-you evidently have difficulty picking up on this-illustrated by your arguements with others about Bethpage, Hollywood, Ridgewood, Quaker Ridge, Merion, Riviera, etc.). Outside agents often are effected by preconceived ideas. Professional contractor's work is usually effected by time constraints -  proper restoration work often calls for TLC and extensive hand labor which can be slow. Professional construction organizations have their own style and methods that may be inconsistant with the original architect and his construction methods.

Third time's a charm - how many days did Fazio spend at PV? If you don't know that's OK too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2003, 10:24:25 AM »
"I'm a little hazy on the details, but could you let me know the courses in south Florida that C&C have built ?
While you're at it, let me know which ones Hanse, Prichard and the others you mentioned have built in south Florida ?"

Patrick;

Another amazing remark. Why do we have Hanse, Doak, Prichard, C&C in Florida now?

"Have either of the two of you actually been involved in the design and construction of a bunker ?   Hands on ??

No, but I sure have spent plenty of time on the sites of all those architects watching them and the crews do it--talking to them about what they're doing, why they're doing it this way and not that way--watching bunkers being shaped, handworked, grassed in varioius ways etc.

Regarding those architects mentioned here who in my opinion build some of the best natural bunkering in golf architecture I don't believe you've ever been out there and watched them do any of this so I can understand why you get confused so often between one thing and another.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2003, 04:12:15 PM »
Tom M. is right on when he claims that in-house staffs are very often great at taking direction and being able to build expert sand bunkers using their own devices and resources. Problem is they often go about things entirely on their own — with no direction — and we find bunkers added or moved to awful locations. This is not to say that many bunkers may also be established in awful locations during initial construction, as I have seen this and also been guilty of this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
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Mike_Cirba

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2003, 04:59:32 PM »
Patrick;

I think you confused my post with Tom Doak's.  I didn't mention Pacific Dunes and I think we all agree with your point there that one of the constraints in bunker building is the unique environmental challenges and differences with any particular site.

However, since you were talking about Merion specifically, I did ask if you played Merion prior to the bunker recreation.  I assume that you have and if so, I'd like to know if you think the new bunkers, especially with their vertically sodded faces and use of wall-to-wall synthetics under the sand will "evolve" in the same way that the original "White faces" did?  

In other words, if this is the way they looked in 1930 ostensibly, shouldn't it be a reasonable assumption that in say, 20 years, they'll look like they did during Hogan's Open?

Do mechanically-shaped, highly structured, synthetically protected bunkers have the same "skeleton" as original bunkers, and should we just assume that they'll improve or decline in aesthetic value over time?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2003, 06:11:10 PM »
"Do mechanically-shaped, highly structured, synthetically protected bunkers have the same "skeleton" as original bunkers, and should we just assume that they'll improve or decline in aesthetic value over time?"

This is a terrific question and one I'm sure that most on here probably won't want to or be particularly interested in getting into. But they should!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2003, 06:29:11 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Have you ever been a green chairman ?

Have you ever dealt with the transient nature of the labor force comprising a ground/green's crew ?

You seem to have this fantasy notion of stability and craftsmenship as if it runs through the very fabric and body of this department.  It doesn't.  

Ground crews tend to be seasonal HOURLY workers, not full time, year round SALARIED EMPLOYEES.

All too often, green budgets are such that minimal wages are the norm rather than the exception.  All too often, .25 cents an hour will cause a workman to take another job.

In addition, green crews are usually consumed by their maintainance responsibilities, and if that crew is diverted to focus on another project, conditioning usually suffers.
In my limited experience, when conditioning suffers, the green superintendent's abilities come into question by the membership.  This is not a good thing, and not the superintendent's fault.  Sometimes, actually often, clubs stretch the superintendent, his budget and his crew too thin, and the course and the superintendent suffer due to mismanagement on the part of the leadership of the club.

Most clubs are far better off hiring specialists to do the work, rather than trying to do something that the green crew isn't trained to do, don't have the time to do, and usually don't have the funds allocated in their budget to do it.

If a superintendent is lucky, he'll have some key assistants that will be with him for a few years, but there are only so many routine maintainance and special projects that a green/grounds crew can do on their budgets, knowledge and time constraints.

Hiring outside specialists, and seperately budgeting for it outside of the regular green budget is a better way to go, unless you like to play Amateur roulette, known to green superintendents as Russian Roulette.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2003, 06:44:07 PM »
TEPaul,

You're confused, or perhaps directionally impaired.

You maintain that bunker specialists make the difference.
Tom MacWood is claiming that any old ground/green crew can do the work.

Your argument isn't with me.
It's with Tom MacWood.
Yet, you continue, like a homing pigeon, to return to me, rather than complete your mission by getting your message through.

Your positions are in direct conflict with one another.

As much as I enjoy acting as the Devil's Advocate, or your interpreter, you need to express your contradictory views to Tom MacWood, if you have the courage of your convictions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2003, 06:50:15 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Before one can answer your question or questions, one has to obtain the following information.

Does the club want them to evolve or remain, in appearance, as they were circa 1930 ?

You've assumed a conclusion that may be in conflict with the club's intent.

When you can definitively answer my question, then we can both proceed to discuss the issue, but absent that information, we're both in the dark.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2003, 07:36:30 PM »
Pat
"Hiring outside specialists, and seperately budgeting for it outside of the regular green budget is a better way to go, unless you like to play Amateur roulette, known to green superintendents as Russian Roulette."

No I wouldn't want to play Russian Roulette, although RR would be preferrable to the architectural suicide that would result from a few of your so-called specialists.

I've been part of that transient HOURLY WAGE unskilled labor force. I also had transient HOURLY WAGE unskilled laborer friends on the staffs at other clubs. I have a pretty good knowledge of transient HOURLY WAGE unskilled labor. And I have no doubt under the right circumstances (as I stated) excellent work can be achieved. The wrong circumstances would be having a myopic confused old bitterman looking over their shoulder and brow beating them.   :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2003, 07:39:18 PM »
Patrick;

I think I asked you first about whether you had played Merion prior to the bunker recreation, but that's ok...I'll be happy to answer your question based on my limited knowledge.

Anyway, I'm assuming that you have played there prior and after and I'm simply asking for your own objective opinion and value judgement concerning their aesthetics, but more importantly, your peceived impression of their "evolutionary ability", irrespective of the mandate of the club.

But, as far as the club's mandate, I certainly hesitate to speak for them because they certainly seem to have gone into the project with really good intentions based on what I've heard.  Aspects of the work have been wonderful, such as the tree removal which has opened up beautiful vistas and they should certainly be applauded for those accomplishments.

I don't want to speak for them, nor should I speculate in that regard.  Instead, I can only quote from segments of  a "Philadelphia Inquirer" newspaper article by Joe Logan, where club officials were interviewed and hopefully that will be helpful.

"In golf course architectural circles, Merion's bunkers have always been known as classics from the golden age of golf course design.  Rather than having the neat, smooth edges so common today, Merion's bunkers were uneven, jagged, rough-hewn, seasoned around the edges with wild dune grass and Scottish broom, the scruffy plant depicted in the club's logo.  Worn and weathered by the years, the bunkers had the look, one might say, of a salty, craggy, old sea captain's face."

"The bunkers have come out of the restoration looking smoother, clean, and modern."

..."Other observers, including Ron Whitten, the respected architecture critic for Golf Digest, had their doubts.  "Was Tom Fazio the right man to do the job?  I don't know", Whitten said.  "A lot of architects pay great lip service to restoring courses, but it's hard for them to supplant their egos and styles to some guy who's been dead for 50 years.  I can tell you that I've never heard Tom Fazio say he had tried to restore a course."

Whitten, who has yet to see the changes in person (article was from August 2001), questions whether the work at Merion qualifies as a true restoration, or more of a renovation, an updating.

"If you really want to take Merion back to 1930, you've got to shut off the water", he said, referring to the modern irrigation system.  "Then, you've got to put in bluegrass fairways, rye grass greens, and make people play the course with wooden-shafted clubs.  You can't really turn back time."

At Merion, they shrug over such talk.  "This was not a design project for Fazio", Marucci said.  "We handed him the old pictures and said, "This is what we want.""

..."This is a work in progress," said Bill Iredale, chairman of Merion's Golf Committee.  

Soon enough, the distinctive, scruffy Scottish Broom and dune grasses will be planted around the bunkers.  They will look more as they used to.  Time and Mother Nature will eventually smooth the edges of the bunkers.  Iredale believes that even the Internet critics will eventually fall silent.

"That pressed and dry-cleaned look will be gone in a season or two" Iredale said. "

So, Patrick, my question remains.  Do we think that modern, sharp edged, "dry cleaned and pressed", mechanically shaped and synthetically reinforced bunkers will evolve in the same ways as their original counterparts?  

You've seen the way modern bunkers are constructed.  Do you see them evolving with time as seems to be the hope at Merion?

On an interesting sidenote, related to some of the ongoing discussion you're having with Tom MacWood, Philadelphia Country Club has recently restored all of their bunkers inhouse supervised by Superintendent Mike McNulty with consultation by Ron Forse.  

My honest impression of the work is that it's fabulous, and contrasts dramatically with what I've seen at Merion and others.  It's tough to look at it and not come to the conclusion that it's all in the time spent on the details.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2003, 03:34:46 AM »
Mike Cirba:

Interesting comparison of the in-house bunker restoration work at Philadelphia C.C. I've been over there and spoke to Mike McNulty the super but never really got into the details of exactly how they did the restoration on the bunkers. I do know the Green chairman well and I think I'll ask him about the details or perhaps McNulty. There may be an important comparison to know about here though. It seems to me they probably didn't completely take apart their bunker surrounds and basically rebuild them the way Merion did. In that may lie an important difference.

Pat:

Thanks for the primer on golf course maintenance crews, transient labor (as you call it) habits and such. Somehow we've been able to manage quite well all these years and also get through a bunker restoration in the last six months without your advice. Those various people of our committee, our architect, contractor, super, and his key people as well as a crew of laborers managed to communicate with each other and do a good job without the benefit of your primer education above. I can't imagine how we were able to manage but somehow we did. But thank anyway!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2003, 03:49:26 AM »
Tom;

I think that's an important distinction that you raise.  My sense is that some work was done to the bunker surrounds at Philadelphia CC, although I'd be surprised to hear that it was a full-scale excavation as was done at Merion.  

Instead, it seems to me to have been "surface work" that avoided the issue of modifying their three-dimensional shaping which seems almost unavoidable using heavy equipment and modern construction techniques.  

I'll be interested to hear what you learn from them.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2003, 04:24:08 AM »
MikeC:

You know I've felt that if a club wanted to preserve the old evolved look of their bunkering but needed to do a restoration because the bunkering's sand or drainage wasn't working well, the thing to do would be to get into the interior of those bunkers, dig them out, install new drainage and then resand them. And if there was something wrong with the surrounds too, just repair them (as they'd probably always done). Maybe this type of two step procedure on some bunkering such as revetted bunkering wouldn't work well but it seems to me on bunkering such as Philly C.C's. (or Merion's) it would work fine. I sort  of look at bunkering in three ways--1. Drainage 2. Sanding 3. Surrounds

Maybe it's naive to think you can do the first two and leave #3 alone but logically I don't see why that couldn't be done. That way one would preserve that old evolved look.

But the reality is probably that some people don't want to preserve that old evolved bunker look. But far more tragically maybe they do actually want to preserve that old evolved look and simply don't undertand that it's possible to only do #1 or #1 and #2 and that they don't have to automatically do #1, #2 AND #3!

You know the way it goes. If your car had a sticky spark plug and you took it to any old mechanic and just said; "Fix my car", who knows--instead of putting in a new spark plug for $19.99 he just might throw a whole new engine in there for 6,999,99!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2003, 05:30:02 AM »
But on that note and to return to the Merion bunker project one more (and hopefully the last) time. I see you quoted someone on the committee as saying this;

""We handed him the old pictures and said, "This is what we want.""

There certainly seem to be a number of people on this website who seem to admire the Merion bunkers the way they had come to look in about 1999 prior to the recent restoration project. Those were bunkers that had evolved through maintenance and natural causes for about 7 decades from 1930 (the old pictures) . But those people who liked the evolved bunkers in 1999 should realize the Merion bunkers in 1999 pre-restortation did not look much like the Merion bunkers in 1930 (what the old pictures showed and what they told Fazio they wanted).

So if the club (and others) recognized that difference and wanted to restore the bunkers to the look of the 1930 pictures the question becomes do the new restored bunkers look like the 1930 pictures or don't they?

My feeling is if you look at the new restored bunkers from about 2000 ft in the air they look almost exactly like the 1930 bunkers in those old aerial pictures. But if you look at the new restored bunkers on the ground and you could look at pictures of the 1930 bunkers on the ground (and the club certainly may not have had a lot of onground 1930 pictures of all their bunkers) there are some distinct differences in look and probably also in play.

And that latter part is sort of the whole point here and probably the reason for some of the fuss--ie, do the new bunkers look like the 1930s bunkers on the ground (anyone can see the new bunkers certainly don't look like the 1999 bunkers).

But there still seem to be a lot of people on here who think the evolved 1999 bunkers were the best. And they at least should recognize that even if the new bunkers and the 1930s bunkers look exactly the same both from the air and on the ground that look does not look much at all like the bunkers in 1999.

Again, some of those people say the new bunkers don't look like the 1930s bunkers on the ground. But what if they did? Would those people who loved the evolved bunkers in 1999 still object and say they don't like the look of a truly exact replication and restoration of the look of Merion's bunkering in 1930, a bunker style that had a very random, jaggedy edged look to it?
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2003, 05:49:39 AM »
Tom;

Some great points all around, and perhaps we can finally leave this issue with some better understanding of various bunker construction techniques and their possible likely evolution.

In answer to your last question...whether the new bunkers look exactly like they did in 1930 and if we'd object if they did...

Let me answer it this way; if that's the way they looked in 1930, then I find it an amazing coincidence to see that they look exactly like Riviera's "restored" bunkers on holes 7 & 8, and many other modern examples by the ubiquitous Macdonald & Co. construction team, on a variety of courses by varied Golden Age architects as well as their work on new courses.  Pretty amazing coincidence, yessiree! ;)



 

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2003, 06:18:54 AM »

Quote
..."Other observers, including Ron Whitten, the respected architecture critic for Golf Digest, had their doubts.  "Was Tom Fazio the right man to do the job?  I don't know", Whitten said.  "A lot of architects pay great lip service to restoring courses, but it's hard for them to supplant their egos and styles to some guy who's been dead for 50 years.  I can tell you that I've never heard Tom Fazio say he had tried to restore a course."

I guess no one's been paying attention to Riviera - or maybe this article predates Riviera. They certainly billed that as a restoration. I heard Tom Marzolf use those exact words in a presentation. He even highlighted the 8th as a specific example of a restoration.

It's very possible that those restored bunkers at Merion could look like the new Riviera bunkers. Those Riviera bunkers look nothing like the bunkers in Geoff's old photos.

Patrick -

Haven't you always maintained that anyone can do anything with the right marching orders? I'd have thought you'd be praising Tom MacWood for some small level of agreement.:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2003, 07:06:53 AM »
"In answer to your last question...whether the new bunkers look exactly like they did in 1930 and if we'd object if they did...

Let me answer it this way; if that's the way they looked in 1930, then I find it an amazing coincidence to see that they look exactly like Riviera's "restored" bunkers on holes 7 & 8, and many other modern examples by the ubiquitous Macdonald & Co. construction team, on a variety of courses by varied Golden Age architects as well as their work on new courses.  Pretty amazing coincidence, yessiree!"

MikeC:

Yes, indeed, that certainly is something that very definitely becomes the issue and even the problem to some. But the question is, who or how many really think so? There very well might be a ton of members at both Merion and Riviera who may not notice the similarities and if they did may not care. That's of course too bad to some such as us.

I'm certain people like us are interested in trying as best as we can to point these things out to members and such who appear not to notice or care in the hopes they will notice and care.

I think it's pretty safe to say that if William Flynn, Hugh Wilson and George Thomas, regardless of what good friends they were, could see how similar an architect, contractor and various members think their bunkers and their bunker styles were they would be quite surprised and probably more than a little disappointed!

But as I've sometimes heard at various clubs--including my own;

"Who cares what they thought--this is 2003!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re:
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2003, 08:03:24 AM »
I have a theory about the interpretation of this bunker construction being done by MacDonald and Company vs. other groups favoring more meticulous handcrafting techniques.

My contention is that the MacDonald group under the supervision of whatever architect it might be is quite good at recreating the position and shape of a bunker from aerial photographs.  The bethpage project is a good example of this.







I have come to the inescapable conclusion form looking at the 1938 aerial that the shapes of the old BB bunkers were quite like the ones we see today.  Similarly, Top Paul seems to think that the Merion bunkers from a modern aerial would look much like the 1930 aerial.  So now what's going on?  I believe the rapid mechanized construction techniques used by MacDonald's group and their finishing techniques leads to those "puffy" edges and lips down into the sand.  That and the surrounds of the bunkers with their sameness to the bluegrasss surrounds leads to that sterile unappealing look (IMO).

Mike- I don't think the shapes of the Riviera bunkers done by MacDonald are anything like Merion or Bethpage but the edging and surrounds certainly are.



TO summarize, I think you just can't substitute machines for handwork and care to bunker edges and surrounds.  Machines can recreate general shapes pretty well.  I doubt that these machine made bunkers will evolve the way Mike would like unless some superintendent tends to them very carefully by hand over the next couple of decades. What do you think of my argument?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2003, 10:03:38 AM »
Geoffrey:

I've been suspecting that and saying that for a couple of years now. Aerials are great but only for two dimensions--ie length and width.

The dimension of height doesn't show up at all well on aerials and for that you must have on-ground photos and what club has enough on-ground photos to match old height variations here, there and everywhere on all their bunkering all over the golf course like one aerial can show length and width of every bunker on the course? Not many or no clubs have all those on-ground photos, so an architect and contractor would logically have to start to match everything off just a few photos of probably representative old bunkers.

But to do good restoration the three dimensions certainly are necessary and from a golfer's eye level the dimension of height might even be the most important.

So without the benefit of "height analysis" off old on-ground photos a good architect is going to have to do a certain amount of interpretation. And that takes talent and generally some good shaping and then good hand-work with possibly grassing and such in the final stages of bunker restoration.

I think this problem could be one lots of courses have gotten into on restorations---just show the aerials to architects and contractors and it will be perfecly restored.

With aerials 2/3 of it might be, length and width--but what about that third dimension--on-ground height and most particularly the necessary and interesting VARIATIONS of the RANDOMNESS of on-ground height which is a lot of what NATURALISM in architecture is all about?

And this is the very reason some of us on here talked about "three dimensionsality" in bunker restoration. I can tell you I've heard a number of people connected to some good courses laugh at the mention of "three dimensionality" on the subject of bunker restoration.

Sounds to me like some of them thought the mention of "three dimensionality" in bunker restoration must be some kind of arcane theory of a bunch of self-possessed golf architecture purists.

Arcane theory--my ass--not as soon as most any golfer sees the work on-ground at eye level which is the way 99.9999% of golfers do see architecture.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

GeoffreyC

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2003, 10:19:56 AM »
Tom- I agree with you totally. I would add that really old time members with a memory for features as they were are valuable resources.

Bunker wol aside, do you think that someone like Bill Kittleman or Valentine could take the surrounding and edges of the current MacDonald Merion bunkers and "evolve them" into the white faces?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: "The new bunker sucks, but it will evolve."
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2003, 10:30:08 AM »
Tom MacWood,

That's some caveat, "under the right circumstances"
And how often do you think the right circumstances exist,
rarely, occassionally, constantly ?

Anybody can do almost anything, "under the right circumstances".

I've seen more bunkers ruined by in-house work, than I have by outside consultants.

What was the golf course you worked on and what was the scope of the bunker project ?

TEPaul,

The work you mentioned at your club included the word
"CONTRACTOR"  who is the contractor doing the work at GM ?
Evidently, YOUR club felt it in their best interest to go to an outside source, a specialist for the work, rather than do it
In-house.  WHY ?

By the way, who did ARONOMINK use for their bunker construction work ??  In-house or specialist ?
And, how did it turn out ?

When Mountain Ridge, a Ross course recently restored their bunkers, who did the work ?  In-house crew, or specialists ?

Mike Cirba,

You can skirt around the issue all you want, and quote third parties all you want, but until someone in power at Merion, steps up and tells us the intent of the bunker reconstruction, all the talk in the world is just speculation.  The key question remains, did the club build the bunkers to look as they did in 1930, in perpetuity, or did they build them to initially look as they did in 1930, with the expectation that they would evolve through time and Mother Nature.  Then, and ONLY then can you address the questions you posed.

If I was trying to re-create the bunkers at GCGC to circa 1936, that would be my permanent goal, not just my starting point.  So, I'm not so sure that evolution was the horizon like goal at Merion, but until someone in power unequivically and unimpeachably tells us the goal, you're all just playing with yourselves and each other, which, with this group, may be to everyones liking  ;D

To answer your other question, I had played Merion a good number of times before the recent work.

The other problem with in-house work is membership interference or instructions, at the individual, committee and board level.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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