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sonofalawyer

Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2004, 04:27:30 PM »
this is my first post ever on gca.  it's a bit of an odd thread to make my debut, but i just couldn't resist chiming in.  

were the "ruins" constructed by DL3's team?  that seems to be the core question here.  i'm not certain we've received a clear answer to that.  

if the answer is yes, then i think it is a rather poor idea, not because of anything to do with golf course architecture or how so called artificial elements (roads, stone walls, hotels) can be incorporated into the design and layout, but simply because i think it is a bad idea to build ruins.  anywhere.

i dislike the idea for the same reason i dislike epcot center and the 3/4 sized international communities at disney world.  it's cheesy.

now, if the ruins are in fact ruins and not disney-recreations, then i think it's a cool idea, and, as long as the local historians and preservationists, don't mind titleists clanking off significant relics, then go to it.

btw, i've been auditing this board for a while now, and i'm a huge fan.  i live in los angeles and play rustic canyon as my home course.  

best,
pj

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2004, 04:46:38 PM »
hmm..."politically correct." I don't know if that's a compliment or an insult, in the spirit of political correctness, i'll assume the latter.

Paul - i think what i'm getting at is that contrived history is usually no history at all. people who want to get a sense of british history and architecture typically go to England, not to Lake Havasu.

If, as I understand it, the idea is to commemorate the revolutionary war battles fought near the course, then I can think of few odder ways of accomplishing that than by constructing a golf course.

Given that Love Design also recreated ruins on his Barefoot resort course, I can only wonder if this has become a calling card. The risk is obviously that he soon becomes known more for ruins than for solid golf architecture (even, though, from what i have heard, the architecture is solid).  


SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2004, 04:47:33 PM »
Also, is "The Patriot" borrowed from the Mel Gibson vehicle filmed largely in SC? If so, why not call it "The Passion of Christ"  ;D ;D

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2004, 05:00:45 PM »
Now we're really delving into political incorrectness.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

ChasLawler

Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2004, 05:13:30 PM »
SPDB - it was a compliment

I think the issue of whether or not artificial ruins makes sense is really up to the eye of the beholder. Personally, they're not for me; but Paul makes a case, and I'm sure there are a lot of folks out there (not in here) who probably love them (no pun intended).

What I was getting at - and what SPDB reiterated - is whether or not there is the potential of Love being labeled as the artificial ruins guy rather than the solid designer guy.


Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2004, 05:59:07 PM »
I will take a little poke at this, just trying to answer some questions I saw.  But this is my disclaimer, I do not know any of this to be exactly the facts, only what I think I may have heard from my years down here.  

From what I understand this Star Fort was a historical structure that once stood somewhere around this general area of Lake Greenwood, but must have subsequently been destroyed.  I believe some famous battles took place there if you are into that stuff.  There are some battlefield parks (off limits to buiild a golf course on I would assume) nearby.  But I believe the people here have tried to recreate as historically accurate as possible what is believed stood on or near this property at one time.

Someone mentioned in a few posts ago that what you see in the aeriel is confusing.  Yes I agree, I have seen this in its raw state, and I was a little confused when I saw the aerial picture.  What you see is a complex that all part of the overall clubhouse complex.  The ramparts are used for the 1st tee (bottom right) and 10th tees (Top).  Then the 18th green plays up to an area that I think is at the top right of the aerial picture that is kind of where another rampart of the Star would have been, but it is gone (presumably destroyed).  So it really is not in the line of play of the holes.  The ruins (buildings) again are backdrops on a couple shots, but are never in the line of play of any hole.

I find to to be an interesting concept, and I look forward to the course opening and playing it so that I can make an more educated decision as to whether I think it is a good golf course or not.  I will not pre-judge based on a air-brushed publicity aerial.  What I saw on the ground, albiet very raw in places looked good.  

Again for anyone getting heartburn by thinking that you are putting "through the clowns mouth" as someone put it.  I think you can rest assured.  What you have is a very small area of the course intended to be the center of club activity and then the course meanders out on the property and has no connection to "riuns" or anything involving artifacts, etc.  And if it is a good golf course then it is a good golf course.

Personally I think what I saw of the central gathering point involving the runis looked pretty cool.  I could see myself sitting out having a couple of pints on a cool Carolina evening with a fire going in one of the fireplaces in the "ruins" of the building wall, watching my fellow club members playing in on 18 down below.  But hey thats me, it might be that the thought of a pint and a fireplace might remind me of a cool evening I once spent sitting outside an "Authentic British Pub" right off the first tee of an "Authentic Links course" that some here seem to think is above average.  Oh wait a minute that was in Oregon not the UK.  But how can that be?  That's OK though I am sure that the "Authentic British Pub" and other buildings were probably there well before the golf course was so that makes it OK.  It is neat how Bandon Dunes resort was able to find those historic buildings, and route the course perfectly so as to incorporate those "Authentic British buildings" into the flow of the course perfectly at the 1st and 18th holes.  Now if they would have "Built" those buildings when they built the course so as to give one a false sense that you were in a british setting that would be cheesy, but we all know that it is not or it never would have gotten the credit that it has on here.

Again I am not affiliated with The Patriot in any way, however I also hate to see a course get unfairly trashed by people who have never been there, and are basing their thoughts on a admitedly gaudy colored touched-up aerial photo taken probably quite early in the construction for the purposes of marketing folks.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 07:05:03 PM by Turboe »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2004, 08:29:07 PM »
...turboe ,my man ,and micheal and cliff......i'll stoke the fire and pour the pints [SPDB and sarge can come too].

i know that this can be a tough site ,with some conceptually elite arm chair critics ,but hey, that's why i'm here...i love it.

this is not about teaching history [most won't realize their surroundings] but about creating exciting forms and features to create GOOD GOLF in an interesting and stimulating setting.

..but some here aren't gonna get it staring at this screen..........
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 08:48:03 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2004, 08:32:41 PM »
Paul -
You pour, I'll buy.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2004, 08:42:39 PM »
You guys who slam a course you have never seen based on one photo are a joke. Wait until the damn thing opens for play then come down and check it out. It's like my old pappy used to say about moonshine, "Don't knock it 'till you've tried it."
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 08:43:19 PM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2004, 10:33:42 PM »
I don't think I "slammed" anything. I'm curious, so I asked and then qualified and explained my thoughts in the abstract.

sonofalawyer

Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2004, 10:41:47 PM »
i forgot to include in my earlier post that from the photos the course looked quite good (i won't even begin to tackle that overhead look.  as was posted earlier, i imagine it looks much different from eye-level).  obviously, one must play it in person to make a quality assessment.  

my only beef was why build fake ruins -- i had no idea DL3 had already done this elsewhere (a bizarre stylistic pattern, if you ask me).  imho, it's not a question of whether something is artificial or not -- to a certain extent it's all artificial (from the island 17th at the stadium to grass growing in the desert).  there's just something off about building a contemporary structure to look like a ruin.  it plays with authenticity, it pretends to be something it's not, and from a historical perspective, i'm not such a big fan.  as a golfer, not such a big deal, i'm just trying figure out how to make par.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Construction visit @ The Patriot - SC
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2004, 11:25:05 PM »
....sonofalawyer,
ya know ,maybe we ought to leave the big picture of golf course design alone ,and concentrate instead on learning how to use the cap key........ :-*
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

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