Some comments on Lost Dunes Golf Club

[Ted_Sturges]

Last week I enjoyed 4 rounds of golf at Lost Dunes Golf Club (bringing my total to 5), and promised Ran I'd post some comments on this wonderful golf course.  I'm not going to give a hole by hole description, but here is an overview and some highlights.The golf course is located in Bridgman, Michigan, which is about a half an hour west and north from South Bend, Indiana.  The property is unique for many reasons, most notably because  the property was at one time a sand mine, and the fact that interstate I-94 separates the 1st 7 holes from the rest of the complex.  The first time I visited Lost Dunes, I was expecting the interstate to be a huge negative, but a thoughtful routing, and some natural dunes covered with large trees thoroughly minimize the proximity of the road.  The sandy soil there is wonderful, and will ensure excellent turf for years to come.  I was told that they didn't have to bring in sand for bunker construction or greens mix, simply putting gentle brush strokes on what was already there.As for the golf course itself, I will begin by saying that I thought I'd seen some wild putting greens in my day.  Renaissance Golf has produced some fun green complexes in the past (most notably at Wilderness Valley and High Pointe), but as a set, these are their wildest.  The only place I've played that rivals these greens would be Yale.  Our group had great fun cussing and discussing these marvelous putting surfaces.  Bravo Tom and Co.My favorite hole on the course would be the 11th.  The 11th is a 430ish par 4 with a slightly elevated tee playing to a generous landing area with cross bunkers right and left.  I hit 4 to 7 irons into the green(depending on the wind and my hack swing) which is above the landing area and sits in a bowl with the nastiest bunker on the property out in the right front.  The green is one of the funnest you'll ever play.  Great hole.I also liked the par 5 15th a great deal.  The tee rests on an island it shares with the 10th green.  It is a "cape" type tee shot (the hole turns right and around a pond left by sand mining) which could be reachable with the right wind and a brave line off the tee.  To the left of the 15th is the tallest dune on the property, with Lake Michigan about 500 yards beyond (though not visible).  A drive and a mid iron leaves some kind of wedge to a green that sits up on a primary dune with a bunker complex short and right.  The course has some great 2 shotters, with the 2nd, 6th, 7th, and 17th being worthy of mention along with the 11th.  Besides the 15th, I also really liked the par 5 4th.  The tee complex rests on the top of a couple of dunes in the northeast corner of the property.  The hole turns gently left, with cross bunkers down the right side, and dunes and OB down the left.  The fairway is very generous (there is plenty of room to drive on all the holes at Lost Dunes), and if a player can sling a hot hook around the dune, the 4th could be reached with an iron (John Morrissett, this hole was made for you!).  The putting green on the 4th is perhaps the wildest on the property.  The top left hole location is maybe 8 feet above the level of the bottom right.  The green is quite wide and sloped from back to front, and left to right.  You can hit wedge into this green, but if you don't hit a good shot, you'll be miles from the jar.  Great hole!Put Lost Dunes on your "To do" list right away.  I believe it is the best work of Renaissance Golf Design to date (having not been lucky enough to see Riverfront or Apache Stronghold yet).

[Ran Morrissett]

While Ted's description sounds too good to be true, I must alas say he has always been right. He tiped me off on the restoration at Yeamans Hall as well as D. Ross's lost gem, Southern Pines.Also, Ted, you should be praised for not letting your scores hamper a positive review.

[Doubting Thomas]

Is this the same Ted Sturges who ranked Beechtree ahead of Stonewall in an earlier post? If so, "Credibility, thy name is zero."Great write-up anyway.

[Ted_Sturges]

To Doubting Thomas,I stand by my previous comments on Beechtree versus Stonewall.  I would be curious to know how many rounds you've played at each?  I believe multiple rounds at both courses (especially Beechtree) will assist you in understanding my views.  I'm hoping you will reconsider my credibility (I'm also hoping your middle initial is not H.).

[Doubting Thomas]

The fact that you have played several rounds on each is even more disturbing. How did you weasel your way into such a fine Discussion Group full of golf dignitaries from around the world?

[Ted_Sturges]

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.  Avoid him.He who knows not and knows that he knows not will learn.  Teach him.He who knows and knows not that he knows, will fail.  Pity him.He who knows and knows that he knows is a wise man.  Follow him.From:  The Spirit of St. Andrews by Dr. Alister Mackenzie (Chapter 7 - Some thoughts on Golf).

[John Morrissett]

Ted--Thanks for the report.  It sounds very good, and I can't wait to play there sometime.  After seeing some of Tom's work you do appreciate how much an architect would like to be given the opportuniy to design a course for a private club rather than daily fee or resort golf -- you can push the enevlope a little more.I have to admit surprise at your continued preference for Beechtree over Stonewall.  Please help me understand your views.John

[Ted_Sturges]

John,Although I love Stonewall as a "place", there are a few holes there that cause me to place Beechtree higher (which I felt had zero weak holes).  I love the 1st 2 one shot holes on the "front 8" at Stonewall, but I'm not a fan of the 8th.  I can remember a picture of the 8th on the cover of a golf magazine featuring a story on "minimalism", and I know they moved the world earth wise on this hole.  I think Ron Whitten wrote the article (and probably took the photo), but #8 at Stonewall is anything but an example of minimalism.  The hole does not seem to fit my eye from the tee, and, as hard as the tee shot is, if you hit the fairway, you've still got 220 uphill into the wind on most days.  Not my favorite hole.  The 9th doesn't do much for me either, but I think the rest of the front is quite strong.On the back, I have never been a big fan of the 14th, and I feel the par 3 15th is the weakest hole on the course.  To me, there are no options there but to hit a perfect golf shot, which is unDoaklike.The 16th is an example of minimalism, with the blind shot off the tee, but the 2nd shot does not hold great appeal for me either.  Before you get to the best finishing hole Tom has ever built, you play a 130 yard hole that seems not to fit in, in terms of where they put it (long walk to the tee for such a short hole), and the difficulty.Beechtree, in my view, did not have a weak hole.  Clearly it is more user friendly (plenty of room to drive the ball), which I think makes for more interesting golf.  The 8th hole is one of the neatest looking par 5s Tom has built, and reminded me of a Raynor hole, with the style and placement of the cross bunkers (doesn't it give you some of the feel of the 18th at Yeamans?).Also, they did some neat stuff with the bunkering there which one might not notice the first time around.  For example, there is a bunker behind the 8th green, that appears to be in play on the 1st hole when you stand 150-170 yards out in the first fairway.  There are 3 or 4 examples of this deception bunkering at Beechtree.  The back 9 at Beechtree has nothing but good holes, with some wonderful putting greens, especially the 17th, a version of the gull wing type of green.  I really liked the place.  I overheard Ron Whitten say that he thought Beechtree was Tom's best course.  I seldom find myself in agreement with him on course ratings, so I'm somewhat spooked by that, but clearly others liked Beechree as much as I did.  I'm not ready to put Beechtree ahead of Tom's Michigan work, but I do place it slightly above Stonewall. (Even if "Doubting Thomas" thinks I'm an idiot).

[Doubting Edward]

Ted, An unusually articulate response to John - who helped you write it?From what I've heard, the greens at Beechtree are too tame, and thus I am not sure Doak would feel it is highly representative of his work or even the virtues that Renaissance espouse.What are thoughts on that? Or should I just ask Ron Whitten?Cheers,PS Over New Years, how about a Beechtree/Riverfront combo?

[Ted_Sturges]

To "Doubting Edward",While the greens there are not as wild as at some of their other courses, one must remember that this is a public facility.  There are some very interesting green complexes there, but as a set, I agree that they are tame on the "Doak meter". However, I think they represent solid work on the part of Tom's team.I'm not sure I understand your point about not being consistent with the "virtues that Renaissance espouses" to.  Please explain that one.Count me in for our 2nd annual New Year's match play drubbing.  No more sub-70 rounds please!

[Doubting Edward]

High Pointe and Wilderness Valley are "public" facilities and I didn't see Doak back off green contouring there. Same with Tillinghast at Bethpage Black and MacKenzie and Pasatiempo in terms of the giving the public a test of the highest order. Are you implying that Doak should insult the public golfer?Renaissance is the sole design firm today that maximises the "quirkiness" of a site (please see his interview). From reports I have received from four other people (hear-say evidence I admit as I haven't been there), the course was very nice but dare I say it - semi-straightforward. Undoubtedly, a lot of that stems from the site itself but to then have RELATIVELY tame green contours  seems out of character. Bottom line: if Renaissance had a potential developer  in tow and wanted to show him the best of their design, Stonewall would receive a visit prior to Beechtree. Before you say anything, please re-read your original post here re: Lost Dunes and the great puzzle the greens represented your group and how much fun you had in solving it.The fact that Lost Dunes is a private club is not a suitable answer.

[Doubting Edward]

High Pointe and Wilderness Valley are "public" facilities and I didn't see Doak back off green contouring there. Same with Tillinghast at Bethpage Black and MacKenzie and Pasatiempo in terms of the giving the public a test of the highest order. Are you implying that Doak should insult the public golfer?Renaissance is the sole design firm today that maximises the "quirkiness" of a site (please see his interview). From reports I have received from four other people (hear-say evidence I admit as I haven't been there), the course was very nice but dare I say it - semi-straightforward. Undoubtedly, a lot of that stems from the site itself but to then have RELATIVELY tame green contours  seems out of character. Bottom line: if Renaissance had a potential developer  in tow and wanted to show him the best of their design, Stonewall would receive a visit prior to Beechtree. Before you say anything, please re-read your original post here re: Lost Dunes and the great puzzle the greens represented your group and how much fun you had in solving it.The fact that Lost Dunes is a private club is not a suitable answer.

[Ted_Sturges]

To Doubting Edward,Good points all.  The only thing I might add is that sometimes the owner dictates the scope of what the architect might do (and sometimes, like at Lost Dunes, the architect is turned loose).  For example, even though Wilderness Valley is public, the owner there was pushing for a course that would have the highest slope rating in Michigan.  Not that this "excuses" Beechtree for having tame greens, but it helps us to understand the finished product at WV.I would never suggest Tom would or should insult the public golfer (the greens at Quail Crossing are big fun).  Bottom line, I look forward to showing you the place after the first of the year (assuming Y2K hasn't ended golf as we know it!)Also, you make an excellent point about where Tom and Co. would take a potential client to see their work.  I agree that Stonewall is a better "exhibit" for what they might do. (Although, I think he should take every future client to Lost Dunes!)Doubting Edward, you too made some excellent points.  Who helped YOU write it?

[The Horse's Mouth]

I'm worried that you guys have typecast me already.  I want to build all kinds of courses, and though Beechtree is not as much fun as some of the others, its more subtle green contours are entirely in keeping with the site and what the client wanted -- a tough, classic, tournament-worthy course.Similarly, a lot of people dismiss The Legends because it's not as hard as my other work, or they don't like big greens -- but that's a great design for Myrtle Beach and for a links-style course.As for where I'd take clients, it depends on what they'd like.  I'm playing with David Eger tomorrow at Black Forest, but I'm sure he'd like Beechtree better, because he believes in "fairness."  I'd love to take him to Lost Dunes and see what kind of imagination he has.The sad truth, though, is that clients [and course-ranking panelists] are too swayed by the setting and the maintenance to really notice the design.  So, I'm currently taking people to Lost Dunes and Stonewall, and hoping that they don't want to come and see High Pointe!!!