[Tuco Ramirez]

comments from today's article in the San Diego Union Tribune:

Tom Pernice
"They ruined the golf course" "It was an old traditional seaside course and now it looks like it was built in 2003 and its a typical piece of junk Rees Jones design.  I'm not a Rees Jones fan, I'm sorry, I havent seen too much good that he's done.  But he's got a plan so be it.  Everybody has their own opinion..

"He runed the greens, the greens are done pitifully, pure and simple"

John Daly- what is the USGA going to do in 2008 except build the rough up"  Its going to be amazing how hard this course will be"

Dennis Paulson- For some reason the USGA likes Rees Jones.  I dont know why--if he's got dirty pictures of the USGA or what.  I think he's absolutely clueless as a designer.  He has no imagination, because he can't see past himself.  He's got an ego bigger than anything you can imagine.

Duffy Waldorf- I don't like it.

Tom Lehman- I'd like to blow up the 4th green.

Rees Jones in retort said-- the criticism is par for the course. If there is no criticism, it is not a great test of golf.  The great thing about golf is everyone has a different perspective.  Criticism is a natural part of the game.

The article then states that Tiger and Sergio like the course ande that no one deemed it UNFAIR.

I'm just putting this up as I can't find the article on their website. I'm glad they quoted Rees and stated some pros like it to keep the article somewhat fair despite its bias towards the $3 million renovation was questionable.  It does also state reviews of the course have been "overwhelmingly positive?

[Eric Pevoto]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/uniontrib/sun/splsect/news_mz1x15south.html

Compare this to Ron Whitten's recent article:
http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/torreypines.html

Are they talking about the same golf course?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

As far as the harsh opinions of the pros that commented for this article--These Guys Are Good!  

Personally, I think Tiger and Sergio answers are almost canned, because since when do you hear them saying anything negative about any course?

My original description of the course from the first day I saw it after the extreme makeover was "Long, Dumb and Stupid." I like what he did with #14. It's a far and away improvement. The course seemingly is getting better maintanence then it ever did, and I can understand the source of pride that Pete and others might have in the Open coming to San Diego. But this course is anything close to US Open caliber in class and style. It is lucky to have the Buick or San Diego Open or whatever they're calling it now.

Do yourselves a favor when your in town, Go see it for yourself. Just drive around the course if you have to, and then go play the North Course (WALKING!). Its far more enjoyable.

[munson]

Gotta love Dennis Paulson.

Whitten's article-- I don't get why the tour players think they should get a larger margin for error. Bunkers test their skill, not undermine it. Hey USGA-- the players are supposed to be good enough to avoid hazards. That's why they are professionals and I am not. Stop the coddling and the ruination of wonderful courses, and just tell the complainers to grow up.

RT Jones, where did you go wrong??

[Jeff Goldman]

Munson,

  Doesn't what you say support holding the open at Torrey Pines?  Tommy and others say it has never been a great course, so changes dictated by Open requirements won't ruin anything.  Having been educated on this site, I'm now torn between wanting to see the open on classic courses just to get a look at them, and fearing that they might be changed ("R.T.Jones'd"?) for the worse in preparation for the Open.  For example, people I trust lament losing some of the original 3rd green at Olympia Fields, and the same may be true of 18 at Olympic (although it may be the new bunkering at OFCC may be a throwback to rugged-looking originals - a lucky change for the better).  If they need to hold an open at a 7700 yard "championship" course, why not use one that won't kill anything great?

Jeff Goldman

[RJ_Daley]

Gee, at first I thought Tuco was putting us on and manufactured a spoof of pro quotes.  But, darn if the links to the articles verify these guys are really making some strong comments.  You really don't here them go seriously negative in their comments about courses and their design or maintenance very often, regardless of how they feel personally.  This is almost like the blizzard of negative comments after the first Hazeltine US Open.  LIke Father Like Son, I guess...

I only saw the course last time when the construction got under way and the greens were being torn up and re-designed.  I did get to speak to Jim Allen, the parks superintendent, and he was very proud of what they were doing, and he had just come from a meeting with Rees.  I remember his comment about how the work would really force the player to hit the perfect shot as Rees was going to be narrowly defining LZs with repositioning and pinching in bunkers.

All this,  is exactly like the Titelist spoof commercial where Ian McAllister, the parodied ASGCA member in the tartan blazer, takes a table model course and stretches the fairways and narrows them and laments how stupid that is.   It is like they used Torrey for the example.  I can't believe how Titelist is blatantly making fun of the issue with 100% truth, and hoodwinking the public into thinking it is folly or frivolous to be against the effects of their longer than longest balls promoting such narrowing and lengthening of competitive golf course.

In this campaign year I say;  Ian McAllister for Pres of ASGCA and Geoff Shackelford for Pres of USGA.  

[Joel_Stewart]

How can Torrey rebuild for $3 million and Harding Park in San Francisco costs $16 million?

[A.G._Crockett]

Who made the statement that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result?

If respond to concerns about courses becoming antiquated due to excessive length by lengthening the golf course, THAT'S insanity!

[A_Clay_Man]

I wonder how far down the Usga priority list is a quality design?

I'd bet that demographic$ take top-notch.

Isn't that  projection of priority at the core of the issues surrounding all the politicing going on?

[RJ_Daley]

I think the people responsible at the USGA for long range planning as it relates to PROMOTION and FINANCIAL success of the annual open event are perfectly happy to have the Torrey Pines site as a venue because they are much more interested in the blimp shots of the ocean and hang gliders than they are of the quality of the course.  They know that a large majority of the audience will be watching for the beauty shots, not the golf strategy.  I don't think that many of the Miller Lite drinkers that will tune in and buy the advertised products are going to notice the lack of strategy that the course offers and will hoot and holler every time a pro unleashes a 320 yard drive into a 21 yard wide fairway bounded by 6 inch spinach.

The only thing I see above is some pros lament that the greens are breaking in unexpected ways (not just towards the ocean).  Did Rees accomplish anything in relation to interesting and tricky contours?  I don't know as I haven't played the new greens.  Is that one saving grace to the redesign?

[Lou_Duran]

Joel,

I didn't see $3mm of work on the ground at TP-S.  Drainage and irrigation had to be a part of it.  In regards to Harding Park, everything is more expensive up there.  It must be one hell of a course.

Tuco,

In Pernice and Paulson you found two great potential contributors to this site.  That they apparently feel as strongly as they do is cause for alarm, but that is not nearly as disconcerting as the way they chose to express themselves.  Not that the two should be censored, but their comments do not reflect favorably upon them and the Tour.  I should be forced to play such a poor golf course on a regular basis.  And to think that people pay over $100 to play TP-S and the tee sheet is nearly full.  What a bunch of stupids most of us are.

BTW, I thought that the concern was that courses were becoming too easy for the top players?  If there is an ego problem in play, whose ego should we be concerned about?

Does anyone remember TP-S before Rees as a classic?  My recollection is that for a number of years, Nicklaus and several other designers, offered to redo the golf course so its architecture approached the greatness of the surroundings.  While TP-S still fails to meet that objective, I have to wonder how many knowledgeable people believe that it is not a superior course today.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I think the people responsible at the USGA for long range planning as it relates to PROMOTION and FINANCIAL success of the annual open event are perfectly happy to have the Torrey Pines site as a venue because they are much more interested in the blimp shots of the ocean and hang gliders than they are of the quality of the course.  They know that a large majority of the audience will be watching for the beauty shots, not the golf strategy.  I don't think that many of the Miller Lite drinkers that will tune in and buy the advertised products are going to notice the lack of strategy that the course offers and will hoot and holler every time a pro unleashes a 320 yard drive into a 21 yard wide fairway bounded by 6 inch spinach.

The only thing I see above is some pros lament that the greens are breaking in unexpected ways (not just towards the ocean).  Did Rees accomplish anything in relation to interesting and tricky contours?  I don't know as I haven't played the new greens.  Is that one saving grace to the redesign?

EXACTLY!

[Geoff_Shackelford]

I say this with affection for the old Torrey Pines and a big bias (my best finish in a college event was there). But Rees has taken a course that had a little character and stripped it clean of anything remotely resembling good architecture. It will easily be the least interesting course to have hosted a modern major, and no matter how successful financially, a one-time visitor in the Open rotation unless the USGA Executive Committee becomes consummed by money (or needs 7600 yard courses). What makes it all the more painful is that there was potential to get something really good out of the site, maybe even something comparable to Bethpage in terms of aesthetic character and grandeur.

Paulson and Pernice were right on, and both have an interest in the subject of architecture (Pernice went nuts looking at old Cypress Point photos in the Riv locker room a few years ago). Paulson also knows the old Torrey from his days on the Golden State tour.

How refreshing to hear PGA Tour pros speak their mind.

[SPDB]

It very rare that I would take a PGA Tour pro's comments to heart about a golf course. I have no way of confirming this, but I will bet that some of the guys complaining about the blandness of TP are the same guys who would complain about blind shots/cross bunkers, etc, e.g. Westchester CC.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

It very rare that I would take a PGA Tour pro's comments to heart about a golf course. I have no way of confirming this, but I will bet that some of the guys complaining about the blandness of TP are the same guys who would complain about blind shots/cross bunkers, etc, e.g. Westchester CC.

Sean, Who said anything about blind shots, and wasn't it Dennis Paulson who once won at Westchester?

[SPDB]

Tommy - I'm just contrasting the complaints lodged here about blandness (valid as they may be) with the often heard complaints from touring pros about blind shots, uneven lies, etc. There are obvious exceptions e.g. Crenshaw, and, who knows, maybe Dennis Paulson.

[Lou_Duran]

Geoff,

I can only say WOW!  "Refreshing"?  "... stripped it clean of anything remotely resembling good architecture."  I just have to shake my head and think, please say it ain't so.

If you deliberated at all before your last remarks, I have lost faith on your objectivity and judgement.  While I haven't read your new book- it is in transit, it pains me to say that I may have some difficulty overcoming the decline of your credibility in my eyes.  Hopefully, your remarks re: TP-S won't be as widely read as your book, and some good can still come from it.

[Jeff Goldman]

So, uh, ARE they the 36 most boring greens in golf?  

Jeff Goldman

[Brian Phillips]

I am watching the golf at the moment.  

I have a coupld of questions:

Could the course be made more interesting by changing the way the course was cut?  The fairways look awfully straight instead of flowing with the contours and around bunkers and trees.

If the rough was taken away from around the greens and fairway cut would this make the course more interesting?

Brian

[Tom_Doak]

I haven't seen the revised golf course (or the telecast), but I'm surprised that the changes have elicited such strong feelings that those players would be happy to pay the fines they are going to pay in order to get on the record their feelings about the course.

"A good course spoiled," read more carefully, underscores the essential point that it was at best only a good course to begin with.

Adam:  for the USGA "quality design" is not particularly high on the priority list.  I was shocked to see this twenty years ago, but as you all know now it wasn't very high on the PGA Tour's priority list when they started building all those TPC courses.

This is not to say that I don't think Rees Jones does quality work.  I'm saying whether he does or doesn't has not much to do with his selection for these projects.  Basically there are two people in the USGA who are in love with his work, and they're the ones with the power to influence what is done at championship sites.  What you or I think of its merits doesn't really matter to them at all.

[RJ_Daley]

Brian, you have studied GCA and have built golf courses;  what do you think?  Perhaps the course could be maintained differently, if it only got limitted play.  But, it gets something ike 100K rounds a year!  The turf on the collars are not conducive to low apron or collar cuts.  I'm not sure what species and cultivar the surrounds there are planted in.  

As one of the commentators mentioned (Kostis I think) the tee shots are all narrow and straight away to pinched in LZs with length and precision as the only real demand.  As I remember, the LZs are not very contoured either.  I remember the angled tee ball from 13 as the most interesting of the whole course.  Then the second for mortals is into an upslope that is now a nest of bunkers on both sides up the hill.  Pros are going for it in 2 routintely.

The two times I played there, I thought that there was enough room to take a few new angles to fairways off tees, and add some interestng contour and width in the LZs to increase strategy.  But, it seems all they could focus on is precision of tee shots and the number 7600yards.  That seems like a very narrow point of view to me.  I like the look of the new (4th?) endless skyline green that melts into the ocean.  And, unlike Tommy, I think 13 is good for a tour sort of hole.  It is about the only thing I like about the remodelling that I have seen only on TV.

Lou, I am surprised you have taken such a hard line on this particular issue.  I'm sure you had a nice time playing the course a few years ago - but did it really give you enough of a quality experience to be ready to lock horns with Geoff or some other detractors who view the course as completely one dimensional and uninspiring in the wake of the remodel?  

[Lynn_Shackelford]

The original South course and the North course were designed by William F. Bell, son of William P. Bell (Riviera, LACC, etc.)  When Marge Bell Callahan wasasked by Pasadena golfer who was better the designer her father or brother, she replied, "my brother didn't know anything about golf architecture."
I believe he(brother) is credited with more than 75 courses.
It's Southern California man, it is bad here.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Lynn,
The members of La Mirada GC wanted me to convey to you that you to stay clear of LMGC. And you better not try to make any visits to Industry Hills either!

YOU sir are Persona Non Grata!

Also after watching the tourney today, I never knew Rees held himself in such high regard.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

To not be able to play La Mirada and Industry Hills will severely cramp my study of golf architecture.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Well then, where are you going to go to learn that six(6) par three holes on a daily fee/county course that averages 85,000+ rounds a years is a recipe for disaster? (La Mirada GC--Home of the Six Hour Golf Round)

I'll do my best to talk to them, but I think its futile. Your stuck out at Rustic.

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