[Jim_Michaels]

A number of rumors circulating around these two neighboring Jack Nicklaus courses. The Bear's Club preceded RCJ by about 2 years I think on very very similar property. The Bear's Club is JN's home club and a source of tremendous personal pride, one is led to believe. The Ritz has lower joining fees, less prestigious members and less expensive houses around it. A few questions:

1. If you were Jack...would you, or did Jack, try to make the Ritz slightly worse or did he try to build the best course he ever built?

2. If the Ritz is better, and you were a member of TBC, would you be angry? Should you be?

3. If the Ritz is better, and you were Jack, would you try to restrict outside access so that TBC members would not be embarassed?

4. Is the Ritz better? Has anybody played both? I have only played TBC, which I thought was a beautiful, well-maintained playing enviroment, with greens that were a bit over the top for my taste.

[HamiltonBHearst]

I am trying to get a handle on what "less prestigous members" means.  They are both new clubs.  Does one have onerous admissions procedures or are you just basing this on the "less expensive homes" around the course or the size of the check one must right to get in?

[cary lichtenstein]

I am proud to be referred to as a "less prestigious member of The Ritz" I'm always happy to be put in my place.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Michaels,

It was my understanding that a number of members of TBC joined the Ritz.

How do you qualify the two memberships ?
On what basis ?

It was my understanding that several, if not many members at TBC were upset that Jack Nicklaus would design and build another golf course on what amounts to adjacent property.

"BETTER", in which or what way ?
Could you define what you mean ?

Thanks.

It was my understanding that Fazio and Wynn had a formal or informal non-compete agreement.
I would think that C&C would not build a golf course next to an existing, competing product, like Hidden Creek or Friar's Head.

Are there any other situations where a modern or a
"Golden Age" architect built two seperate golf courses for two different owners, where the properties were adjacent to, and competed with one another ?

[cary lichtenstein]

Jim:

Come play the Ritz with me. See what you think and then you can post your opinion.

Quasssi

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I don't know which course came first in Jupiter but the Ritz in Sarasota chose Fazio to build their course next to a Nicklaus/Jacklin course. See my post on this new development.
If TBC was first  then I think the Ritz in Jupiter made a mistake in choosing Nicklaus. Maybe the Ritz felt that the east coast of FL was more Nicklaus oriented. Who knows why this decision was made.
Steve

[cary lichtenstein]

Nicklaus did an excellent job designing the course at The Ritz. I don't understand why anyone would say that was a mistake.

[Jim_Michaels]

Quassi, I might very well take you up on it.

My intent with the thread was not stated terribly well, though I think Pat Mucci has framed it properly. Isn't this an unusual sort of series of events? The two high profile projects. One, a private members club intended to be the architects' home course. The other, built for a large corporation's time share type of deal. And the latter might well be better. I guess I was thinking that if I were the architect, I would probably try to make every course as good as it could be, but that my home course might get just that much more tlc. For another, more "standard" project to turn out to be more interesting, more strategic, more whatever would kind of imply that I don't really even know what "better" is, or I would have insured that my home course got that quality out of me.

[rgkeller]

Nicklaus had an option on the property. Anyone who built the hotel on his land was locked into Nicklaus as a designer.

[John_Cullum]

This website is dominated by people who eat sleep and breath golf course architecture, not that there is anything wrong with that.

I am of the opinion that 90% of the members at the Bear Club have never given a second thought to Nicklaus building another course nearby, and if they have, they are probably happy for him.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sarge,

Perhaps you meant the inverse, 10 %.

I'd agree with that.

[Joel_Stewart]

Last year I was playing at the Medalist and met Per-Ulrik Johannson and Jesper Parnivick who both live in Jupiter or close by.  We were discussing different courses in the area and they both talked about the Ritz course and how much they liked it.  I was trying to get a feel about how much they knew about architecture (which I couldn't) but it appeared they liked the Ritz more than the Bear's Club.

On a side note, they had only played Seminole once.

[John_Cullum]

I really can't take issue with an architect building competing courses in close proximity with one another. Nicklaus did 18 at Colleton River and now he's going to do 18 at Palmetto Bluff, about 10 minutes away. Fazio did 18 at Belfair and then did 18 at Berkley Hall, about 10 minutes away, and he also did Moss Creek, about 5 minutes from Colleton. I don'y think any member of any of theese clubs ever thought thiere was anything unusual about this.

Why would The Bear Club members be any different? Because the clubs mentioned above are real estate developments? That doesn't compute for me.

I would expect nicklaus did as good a job as he could at The Bear Club and as good as he could at The Ritz. I haven't played either so can't say which is better to me, but I am pretty familiar with jack Nicklaus. He would not set out to do a high dollar project with an attitude toward mediocrity. With that said, I would not be surprised that Nicklaus turned out a mediocre golf course. I am of the opinion Nicklaus is not as gifted at golf architecture as he was at golf. That probably explains why the Ritz is better than TBC, if that is true.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sarge,

I really can't take issue with an architect building competing courses in close proximity with one another. Nicklaus did 18 at Colleton River and now he's going to do 18 at Palmetto Bluff, about 10 minutes away. Fazio did 18 at Belfair and then did 18 at Berkley Hall, about 10 minutes away, and he also did Moss Creek, about 5 minutes from Colleton. I don'y think any member of any of theese clubs ever thought thiere was anything unusual about this.

We're not talking about 10 minutes away, we're talking about being immediately adjacent

Why would The Bear Club members be any different? Because the clubs mentioned above are real estate developments? That doesn't compute for me.

I think you'd have to understand the marketing pitch to join TBC and the cost involved to do so in order to get a better handle on some of the issues related to TBC and the Ritz.

I would expect nicklaus did as good a job as he could at The Bear Club and as good as he could at The Ritz. I haven't played either so can't say which is better to me, but I am pretty familiar with jack Nicklaus. He would not set out to do a high dollar project with an attitude toward mediocrity. With that said, I would not be surprised that Nicklaus turned out a mediocre golf course. I am of the opinion Nicklaus is not as gifted at golf architecture as he was at golf. That probably explains why the Ritz is better than TBC, if that is true.

I think if you create, develop and market a club as a unique, one of a kind club, and charge significant initiation fees to join and significant dues to belong, and then almost duplicate the product right next door, at lower prices,
I could see how some members might be upset, don't you ?

[McCloskey]

Patrick Mucci

You state that you could understand how the members of TBC could be upset if a course was built next door was nearly a duplication of the original at much lower prices.   If that were true, I can understand why you might think this.  However, the golf courses are significantly different.  Each has distinctly different bunkering and green concept.  They do not look anything alike even though they were constructed on exactly the same parcel of land.   Also, I am pretty sure that most, if not all, the members of TBC were well aware that the Ritz Club would be constructed next door before they ever joined TBC.

[John_Cullum]

The two high profile projects. One, a private members club intended to be the architects' home course. The other, built for a large corporation's time share type of deal.

I'm fresh back from a photo tour of both sites. I think Jim's premise is wrong about the Bears Club. While TBC is obviously very nice and probably priced quite exclusively, it appears to be a real estate development, as opposed to a "private club." I even signed up for a brochure to be sent.

So Pat, in that light, I guess I might be angry that a  similar product popped up next door for less money. And they do appear very similar. But I wouldn't be angry at Nicklaus, I'd be looking in the mirror.

I will further add that from my photo observations, neither is mediocre.  

[McCloskey]

Sarge

I think the description of TBC as a private club is much more accurate than a real estate development course.   There are only 60 total lots available on or near TBC course.
There are no home sites on the front nine that I recall, and the only ones found on the back nine are on holes 11-14.   I may have forgotten a hole with homesites, but if I did it was because they were not conspicuous to play.
I think that if you are going to call TBC and development course, then you would have to do the same to Pinehurst #2, because they both have about the same home frontage.   I don't think anyone would call Pinehurst #2 a development course.

[cary lichtenstein]

Both the Bears Club and The Ritz are beautiful and excellent courses, and once you step on the first tees, you would not know you are in Florida. Both are loaded with Pine Trees.

Neither course is a pushover, and they require lots of course knowledge before you are comfortable. You need every club in your bag, and a versatile short game around the greens.

At The Ritz, it helps if you possess an excellent sand game. The greens are smallish, and have a lot of Donald Ross collection areas.

[Patrick_Mucci]

McCloskey,

I know at least 20-30 members who were not aware that Nicklaus would be building a golf course immediately adjacent to TBC, when they were about to join, or even after they joined.

I didn't know it when several members asked me to consider joining.

I would agree, I never thought of the club as a real estate development, although I was aware of the long range plan with respect to homes.

Quassi,

I never got the feeling that I wasn't in Florida.

They're cetainly different then Admiral's Cove, but the Florida flavor is unmistakeable.

[aspen215]

THE BEARS CLUB has a full membership. no one cares about the ritz being next door or the fact that jack designed it...most members who joined THE BEARS CLUB are members at several clubs .... the RITZ is a nice resort course but no BEARS CLUB .The spa however is great.

[rgkeller]

$350K

Will finance over three or five years.

Sold out.

Increasing list to get out.

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