The extinction of narrow greens

[Patrick_Mucci]

Has golf's popularity brought about the demise of narrow greens, especially angled narrow greens ?

Smaller, narrow greens have limited cupping areas and traffic, especially heavy traffic will eventually make their ability to provide an adequate playiing surface difficult.

Will architects have to build bunkers in the middle of a larger green in order to replicate two smaller, narrower greens ?

[Forrest Richardson]

No.
No.
Thanks for your question.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat, Glad your back, you were missed.
Here's a green that was recently constructed.  

So, perhaps you meant extinction, figuretively?


Black Mesa's Par 5 #13

[Forrest Richardson]

Adam,

Perhaps by ratio you might construde that green "narrow", but I hardly think it is less than 60-ft. wide, is it? My guess is about 60x180-ft.

A "narrow" green would be 30-ft. wide in my view.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Forrest,

My thoughts were along the lines of # 12 at ANGC or # 13 at
Pine Tree, narrow angled greens that PLAY shallow.

The picture Adam provided appears to be deep green with a relatively short approach from a benign angle.

[Forrest Richardson]

Well, a "narrow" green would either be one fully narrow — let's say 30-ft. wide throughout — or, perhaps, 30-ft. wide at the entrance and then slightly wider as it progresses. A narrow green would also be one generally set with its longest axis aligned with that of the direction of play, not otherwise. One as you describe could be narrow — and also "shallow".

[CharlieM]

I always felt that Sherwood #6 or #15, whatever way you play the nines was pretty shallow. Its the hole with the par three over the really cool pond and waterfall.

[Tom_Doak]

Forrest:

To me 30 feet is beyond narrow, it's anorexic.  The only greens I've ever seen on a top-50 course which are 30 feet wide are the old 7th at Pebble (since widened), the 10th at Riviera, and the 8th at Royal Troon.

Most of the skinny greens I paced off in my year in the U.K. were fourteen or fifteen paces wide ... the same width as between the Road bunker and the Road.  I wonder if they used that as a standard?

Patrick:  I don't think those greens are going to become "extinct," because I don't think the examples above will ever change.  But there aren't a lot of architects out there building more greens like them.  Most superintendents are not at all fond of them and aren't afraid to say so.  Occasionally I get one who's understanding [or they don't hire one soon enough ) and I get to slip in a really narrow green, such as the 6th at Pacific Dunes or the 7th at Barnbougle.

[moth]

I think the 3rd at Kingston Heath is about 11 or 12 yards wide. Not all that long either - maybe 25 yards?

[A_Clay_Man]

Well Pat's correct again, You can't tell boo from a picture. Benign? What is that? If we were talking cancer, it would be a good thing.

As for measuring the width, I never really thought about it in terms of an actual distance, more, how it plays. If one is to play this hole as a three shotter, the approach is narrow. A miss of less than ten yards will vurtually gaurantee sandom. And since Baxter has a propensity for FUN, I have come close to this green in two, twice. Both attempts trusted what wasn't completly visable. So, busting three wood from 250, to this narrow green and narrow surrounds is the antithesis of benign, imo.

Since Pat has further defined what he meant by narrow (12th at Augusta), the last green I saw that closely resembled that one was on a par 3 at "the missing links" of Mequon. I believe the hole was named "master"
Definitely the shallowest green I have ever seen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

Busting a 3-wood from 250 to reach the green on your second shot on a par 5 would leave the golfer with a relatively short, regulation approach, probably a LOB wedge, or pitch and run.

I'd call a LOB wedge or a pitch and run approach benign.
On the other hand, a shot of 130 to 150 to the same green for a regulation approach would be challenging.

[David_Madison]

Pat:

Would you put Mayacoo Lakes in the category of courses with very narrow greens? I've only played it once, but one of my prime recollections of the course was its greens complexes - a number of very narrow greens set at angles to the approach shots, making them play shallow as well. A bunch were elevated with bunkers on either side pushing up right into their centers. I couldn't imagine these holes being very playable with strong cross-winds. I stepped off a few greens that if I remember correctly were in the 12 - 14 step range, with portions even narrower.

[A_Clay_Man]

A Clayman,

Busting a 3-wood from 250 to reach the green on your second shot on a par 5 would leave the golfer with a relatively short, regulation approach, probably a LOB wedge, or pitch and run.

I'd call a LOB wedge or a pitch and run approach benign.
On the other hand, a shot of 130 to 150 to the same green for a regulation approach would be challenging.

Pat, if you look closely at the pic you will see the crown that guards the entrance to this green. With my ball flight, both my "closies" were thrown right, close to the right bunker. With a front pin, the delicate nature of the shot required is far from benign. Also, Baxter's greens are so well designed that no mater what distance you have left, the thrill and challenge associated with 'unpredictable', is core.

p.s. you forgot a benign putt.

[Steve Curry]

Two come to mind for me and I loved them both, #8 at Hominy Hill and #12 at PVGC.  There such a premium on approach angle and holding the green.  I know they tend to be harder to maintain but they are always thrilling to me.  Obviously they are relative and the distance, angle tee shot play a huge role in how narrow they feel.  I see no reason for then to fade away?

Steve

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Madison,

Would you put Mayacoo Lakes in the category of courses with very narrow greens?

I found the approaches narrow, the greens relatively small, elevated and well protected

I've only played it once, but one of my prime recollections of the course was its greens complexes - a number of very narrow greens set at angles to the approach shots, making them play shallow as well. A bunch were elevated with bunkers on either side pushing up right into their centers. I couldn't imagine these holes being very playable with strong cross-winds. I stepped off a few greens that if I remember correctly were in the 12 - 14 step range, with portions even narrower.

Those green complexes may be amongst the most difficult in southern Florida, especially when the wind blows.

For some reason the golf course doesn't get the credit it deserves

Steven Curry,

I had forgotten about # 12 at Pine Valley, another spectacular, narrow, angled green.

How could I have forgotten the 4th hole at Spyglass ?

A Clayman,

I don't find approaching from 30 yards as an excessively difficult shot.  So instead of being 10 feet from the hole, you bail out and end up 30 feet from the hole, leaving you the benign putt for birdie that I forgot to mention.

I think you have to look at the regulation approach shot in the context of distance, angles and margins, to gain insight into the shot and green configuration I had in mind.
I don't think shots in the 30-50 yard range create the threat I had in mind.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tom,

Not sure whether you're pacing just the putting suraface, or collars, too. Regardless, I'd go to 40-ft., but at 15 paces (45-ft.) I feel the green is beyond "narrow". It may be less wide than a majority of greens, but not necessarily "narrow" in definition.

But, to answer the original question. Still, "no".

[A_Clay_Man]

Understood Pat, But my experience on the hole in question wasn't from 30 yards, it was pin high, maybe 8 yards to a sloped knob. Mucci delacati.
I also think we have different definitions of difficult because a shot from 0-50 yards on hole 4 at Spy, requires awareness extraordinaire, along with a deft touch. That to me is nowhere near as benign as a wedge from 125.
 

[Steve Lang]

Has golf's popularity brought about the demise of narrow greens, especially angled narrow greens ?

DOES GOLF POPULARITY REALLY INFLUENCE THE DEMISE OR ADOPTION OF ANYTHING TRULY SIGNIFICANT IN GCA?   FOR EXAMPLE, SURELY TPC STYLE COURSES HAVE THEIR FUNCTIONALITY, BUT NOT THEIR STYLISTIC MERITS THAT WILL CONTINUE AND PERHAPS SHOULD GO THE WAY OF THE DINOSAURS..

Smaller, narrow greens have limited cupping areas and traffic, especially heavy traffic will eventually make their ability to provide an adequate playiing surface difficult.

HAS POPULARITY REALLY BROUGHT A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN ROUNDS PER YEAR AT THE OLDER LIMITED ACCESS COURSES THAT MIGHT BE REFERENCED IN ANSWERS TO THIS QUESTION?  

Will architects have to build bunkers in the middle of a larger green in order to replicate two smaller, narrower greens ?

YOU MUST HE BEEN WATCH THAT COUPLES ELS MATCH ON SWWoG THE OTHER NIGHT..  I WOULD THINK SUPTs WOULD REALLY NOT LIKE TO HAVE TO DRIVE EQUIPMENT ACOSS GREENS OR ALTERNATIVELY TO HAVE TO HAND PREP SUCH ISLAND TRAPS..

[Jeff Goldman]

Tobacco Road has at least one really narrow green, though not really angled, on the par-5 13th(?), hidden in between hills and elevated.  Do any of his later courses have these kinds of greens?

Jeff Goldman

[ChipOat]

So many great short par 4's becuase of their ultra-narrow greens:

Riviera #10, PVGC #8, Cypress #9.

So many great par 5's for the same reason:

NGLA #7, Pebble #14.

So many great (mostly short) par 3's, too:

Troon #8, NGLA #4

Tom Doak:

Why don't superintendents like them?

[Brian_Gracely]

Tobacco Road has at least one really narrow green, though not really angled, on the par-5 13th(?), hidden in between hills and elevated.  Do any of his later courses have these kinds of greens?

Jeff Goldman

Jeff,

Tobacco Road actually has 3 narrow greens in a row, #13 (mentioned above), #14 (par3) and #15 (par4).  The right side of #6 (Par3) also plays very narrow.

[peter_p]

Astoria's #3 and #15 fit the bill, but the narrowest one in Oregon is #11(?) at Kahneeta which is about 8 paces wide, but it does have a kick slope on the right side. Growing condition certainly has a large say about how successful a narrow, or shallow, green survives, and Astoria is lucky in that regard.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Two great narrow greens with pin options (due to their length)can be found on Long Island.  #7 at Huntington CC and #3 at North Shore CC (Tillinghast's Road Hole).  Both greens  are really fun to play and it would be a great pleasure to play more greens of a similar nature.

[Steve Curry]

Chip,

Narrow greens often end up focusing the traffic across one side or another depending on the orientation to the next tee, bunkering and the trees.  And also a smaller green always is harder to maintain for having fewer hole locations.

Steve

[Jeff_Brauer]

Steven,

Haven't seen you here in a while!  Welcome back!  I said the same thing (approximately) as you on the shallow green thread.  You can get back the same number of pin positions by making a narrow green longer, but somehow, when your green is only two pin positions wide, the foot traffic getting there traverses the same area too much, resulting in wear.