More Maidstone for Cirba

[Mat Ward]

a mea culpa to you amigo!

I still stand by my words that the Bridge is one of the three best on the island. It has all of the basic, what I call "A Ward Winners"

1)Slope rating
2)Good yardage from the tips
3)Fellow New Jersey resident Rees Jones
4)A superb design effort that tests the low-handicapper from tee to green
5)Membership has access to copies of New Jersey Golfer

Now lets look at Maidstone in comparison

1)Slope rating that matches that of VanCortland Park
2)It can't handle me with my superior distance off of the tee
3)Fellow New Jersey resident Rees Jones
4)Membership has access to copies of New Jersey Golfer to wipe their behinds with.
5)A sooooooo-sooooooo layout that only has the prettiness of the sand dunes which to work off of-puleeeehhhhzzzzzzzzzz!

Still don't get it? Look at it this way: How many courses have you seen? Then think about how many courses I've seen! Who gets it?

Think about it amigo. If you agree with me you'll win a year subscription to New Jersey Golfer If you partially agree with me, you'll win a two-year subscription to New Jersey Golfer

Don't forget to take that chill pill! Come to think of it, I forgot to take mine!

[TEPaul]

Whoever wrote that "Mat Ward" post--it's hilarious! I know I'm dense but I read it twice before I realized it wasn't Matt Ward!

[golfguy5610]

Ward0 - The challenges of this great course do not lie in its length. Additionally we wouldn't use your rag for toilet paper.

[Mat Ward]

Quite obviously you haven't been in the shoe-shine guy's restroom

[Scott_Burroughs]

golfguy5610,

That previous post wasn't the real Matt Ward, but an impostor.  Other than spelling his name wrong, he didn't even have the name of the magazine that Matt edits/writes for correct.  

And the real magazine is pretty good for a regional rag.  Has honest critiques of golf courses without catering or doing fluff stuff for sponsors.  

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I thought my controversial assessment of Maidstone had died a couple months ago with the conclusion that it serves a great Southside, has a few world class great holes, and a few very ordinary holes.  It is a great course, but not worthy of such a high ranking.  Those of you who have played over in the UK, how in the world can you justify its world ranking?  There is no way that it is a better course than Nairn, Island links, Beltray, Port Stewart, and probably a few other excellent unranked courses that fall under the shadows of the exceptionally greats.

[James Edwards]

Tom,

I feel it necessary to respond to your post, as you kindly responded to my question.

Thank you for the post, all be it lengthy (but then again, we are being hit by snow storms in the Uk right now and as I sit at my desk, it makes pleasant reading with my coffee...)

Your explanation was greatly appreciated, although I would say that the if (for arguments sake) the bunkers were on the other side, the strategy of the hole would be excellent, along with the safety being considerably better, having sand protecting the road at least by the green.

The strategy would then reward the player who finds the fairway close to the water and reeds, opening up the green.  The safe player who plays out to the right will then have a tougher approach?

I thoroughly agree though, that the hole is a fantatic short par 4 regardless with many outcomes possible - criucial for a 17th hole IMO.

j

[Mike_Sweeney]

It is a great course, but not worthy of such a high ranking.  Those of you who have played over in the UK, how in the world can you justify its world ranking?  There is no way that it is a better course than Nairn, Island links, Beltray, Port Stewart, and probably a few other excellent unranked courses that fall under the shadows of the exceptionally greats.

RMD,

I have often wondered if you put Maidstone, National, Newport and Shinnecock in Ireland, how would they stand up? I don't know Scotland well enough. Probably they would drop because of the lack of uniqueness that they have here. Conversly I think Cypress and Friar's Head would rise, because the terrain at those two would stand out in Ireland. Obviously Cypress can't go much higher anywhere.

In the case of Maidstone, I think even Matt Ward would agree at it's lowest, it would sit on the Golfweek Classical list. The setting ON the Atlantic Ocean is a powerful draw. It is really the only course that sits on the dunes covered land on the Atlantic Ocean in the Northeast US.

National is on Peconic Bay
Shinnecock is inland
Misquamicut, Fisher's and Friar's are on LI Sound
Newport is set back from the rocky coast by Ocean Drive

I think all of the Massachusetts courses are set back from the ocean.

Maidstone also benefits from its ranking (by me and most others) as the greatest Country Club in the world because of its facilities. As a family guy there is no place better than Maidstone.

[TEPaul]

"Ward0 - The challenges of this great course do not lie in its length. Additionally we wouldn't use your rag for toilet paper."

This is killing me! However, we should never take these issues into too much of an extreme. Personally, I'd not object to using Matt Ward's "rag" in a pinch for toilet paper but ONLY IF the pages had the consistency of the "Soft and Fluffy" variety of Charmans! Otherwise I would never think of using it for toilet paper!

[TEPaul]

RMD;

The only one on your list abroad I've played is Port Stewart and although I did have a ball, and the topography of Maidstone is not comparable to some of Port Stewart I don't feel Port Stewart is a better golf course. Port Rush and County Down sure are, though, in my extremely humble ranking opinion!

I must stress, again, though, that my ranking opinion is extremely humble--I have not played all the golf courses Matt Ward has played so there's no way I could know what he does. And as far as Matt's unbiased reporting on architecture I must admit I find that hard to do sometimes so as not to offend my hosts and such. So many of my opinions of architecture should generally never be taken seriuosly or at least should be viewed with extreme suspicion from time to time.  

My beef with Matt Ward on a course like Maidstone is that he says things like Maidstone depends on the wind to offer the golfer a severe test. I believe he's right about that and that that factor is one of the very things that makes the golf course so interesting and variable (when the wind does not blow it's an entirely different and lesser test and challenge). That extreme variableness is somewhat unique to Maidstone and that's the very thing, in my opinion, Matt Ward neither understands nor appreciates!

That's the very thing that would make me look forward to playing Maidstone day after day--extreme variableness!

[TEPaul]

"The setting ON the Atlantic Ocean is a powerful draw. It is really the only course that sits on the dunes covered land on the Atlantic Ocean in the Northeast US."

MikeS:

Now that's an extraordinary thing to consider--I never exactly thought of it that way. How interesting! Do you think that's really true?

[Mike_Cirba]

The only other one that comes to mind is the nine-hole Highland Links off Cape Cod, but I'm not sure that's quite linksland.  It sure is right on the ocean, though, as is Samoset in Maine come to think of it.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike C,

I really want to play Highland Links and Eastward Ho in a combo trip.

Tom,

Tell me this, why did none of the Philly WASP society from Merion, Gulph Mills, Pine Valley go down to Avalon, NJ in the 1920's and scoop up a couple of hundred acres in the high dune area that is now 50th street there. Atlantic City, and Cape May to a lesser extent, was in its heyday, and there was basically nothing in Avalon or Stone Harbor. Could have been a Jersey Maidstone that even Matt would like.

Nothing on/near the ocean in Jersey except for Brigantine Golf Links. Spring Lake is a mile or two back from the ocean.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Sweeney;

Highland Links is a treat.  From Ran's profile on this site, I'm sure Westward Ho is as well.

As far as Brigantine, it was built on the "bay" side of a barrier island and the closest it gets to the ocean is perhaps a 1/4 mile.  I used to play 36 a day there during summer vacations at "the shore".  Fun old Stiles/Van Kleek course that has been a bit too gussied up in recent years.

[Michael Moore]

Mike Sweeney -

Eastward Ho! has a tiny bit of what you are describing, but most of the course is up on a bluff, with the seventh and fifteenth holes grazing the ocean.

The same is the case for Highland Links, with the awesome sixth hole situated sixty feet above sea level (soon to be five feet below sea level!). I would love to show you around Highland Links - I have played twenty times and I have a fond, romatic, deep connection to the course. Bring your camera, and we can do a "should a fairway ever have to maintained better than this" post. The answer is oh, yes!!

Also close but no cigar is the mysterious Chequesset Yacht Club in Wellfleet. Definitely built in and around some cool dunes, but not at all on the water.

Now, to paraphrase Samuel Johnson, "I refute Sweeney thus". In Scarborough, Maine, you will find the ultra exclusive Brahmin enclave known as the Prout's Neck Country Club, designed by Wayne Stiles. This gorgeous course has at least five holes which pretty much run up onto the beach and is one of the most special places in New England for golf.

[TEPaul]

Mike Sweeney:

Because they were too damned busy playing golf at Atlantic City C.C. inventing things like birdies and such and then one day on the train ride home with all of them George Crump said;

"Look at that rough piece of shit land over there--I think I can pull a silk purse out of that sow's ear", and the rest is history and most of them went down to the "Valley" after that and left the "shore" to the eventual invasion of the hoi polloi! When the hoi polloi snatched the "shore" out from under the WASP aristocracy's noses they said to themselves;

"We sure as hell can't go anywhere near that hoi polloi" so some really great dunesland golf courses on the ocean in New Jersey never happened. But even if all of them that might've gotten built were a collection of the finest courses in the world Matt Ward would still not understand any of them and would refuse to believe that any of them should be anywhere near those ridiculous magazine top 100 or New Jersey's top 10!

[Matt_Ward]

I really enjoy when c-o-w-a-r-d-s hide behiond usig someone's name falsely. Shows plenty of guts on there part.  

I have a different assessment than all the fawning that takes place. I have said more than a few times Maidstone's a fine course but I never have believed for a New York minute that the course comfortably resides within the top 50 in the USA.

For all those whimps out there that simply cherry-pick off the classic courses and rarely, if ever, venture out and see what great courses have come forward in plenty of locales in the USA I have just one thing to say -- enough of your mindless barking because your credibility -- lack thereof -- is simply so clear as to be painful.

Maidstone gets a residual push because it IS IN THE HAMPTONS -- not a bad neighborhood to be in with the legitimate likes of NGLA and SH. The dunes holes at Maidstone are grand stuff -- but for some reason those who harp on and on about the course really have more to do with the bloodlines of their friends than with the totality of its architectural elements IMHO.

One last thing -- for those who have never read Jersey Golfer magazine I'll be glad to forward copies and you can make your own opinions. We try as a publication to be an editorial service to our readers -- we are not some empty advertorial element that so often dominates the landscape of golf media one sees today.

Scott B -- Thanks for your comments.

TEPaul:

You need to actually see and play the broader array of courses that exist in the USA. You look at architecture in some sort of narrow way because your sampling size of courses is thin.

You often trash ratings and the like but do yourself a bigger favor and understand that there are people who do venture and see what's out there in the USA today -- and it's a bit more than simply going on and on about the same courses from the Northeast -- which do in fact many do deserve high praise -- the thing you fail to admit is that others can have an equally high passion for architecture and view it from a much broader perspective because they have a bigger base from which to compare / contrast.

Nothing more ... nothing less.

[tonyt]

With apologies, my favourite entry in a "Cynics Dictionary" I received for Christmas was thus:

Long Island:
"America's idea of what God would have done with nature if he'd had the money"

[TEPaul]

tonyt;

That dictionary shouldn't have said Long Island--it should've said Shadow Creek! If God had more dough for construction he would've made a mirage a reality.