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Ran Morrissett

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William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« on: January 14, 2004, 03:30:39 PM »
...under In My Opinion and under Architecture Timeline.

In just the past decade especially, Seth Raynor has come to be appreciated for his steep and deep style and the enduring strategic merit of his designs. As Mark and others like Daniel Wexler and Geoff Shackelford point out, the same applies to architect William Langford's work. In addition though, as Mark details in part through a fascinating conversation that he had with Tim Liddy, Langford's work also enjoys a more natural, less rigid appearance than Raynor's.

While Langford didn't have a Macdonald guardian angel to get him the same number of super choice projects, how many Raynor designs clearly blow away Lawsonia? A few? Any?? And on less inspiring topo, doesn't Langford's revision of Skokie more than favorably compare with CC of Charleston?

Like Raynor, hopefully there will be a resurgence in appreciation for Langford's talent and Mark's piece is a great, great place to start.

Cheers,

Matt_Ward

Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2004, 03:48:37 PM »
Ran:

Agree with your assessment on Lawsonia ... few people really appreciate the nature of the land and the manner by which all the holes fit quite comfortably on the landscape there. I enjoyed the course immensely from the 3 times I have played it.

Anyone venturing to the PGA at Whistling Straits in August should make a slight detour and head to Green Lake -- you will be very surprised at how good and underestimated Lawsonia Links really is IMHO.

P.S. For what it's worth -- there is no way that Shoreacres --a Raynor design -- outclasses Lawsonia. Not even close IMHO.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2004, 10:00:28 PM »
Midwest guys, where are you ? Shivas, Dan Kelly..... So far we have a Manhattan based author, the North Carolina owner and a Jersey Rater commenting on this Midwest architect. People often complain about a Northeast bias at this site but we have a Midwest architect with over 200 courses and no discussion. When Mark told me about Langford, I was amazed that I never heard of him. He states, "Langford’s body of work can be summed up in four phrases:

Fun to play
Full of variety
Strategically interesting
Routings that are often bold and expansive in scale"

This is the stuff that we celebrate here, so does he rank with Raynor or is Mark Chalfant "Full of S**T" to paraphrase Brad Klein ;).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2004, 10:13:36 PM by Mike_Sweeney »

RJ_Daley

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Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2004, 12:22:24 AM »
Mike, as a midwest guy whose early awakening to the magical world of exciting golf course architecture occured at Lawsonia as a 12 year old lad, I can say that Langford and Morreau left us a real gift for the ages there in Green Lake.  As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that if you have a son or golf with a youngster that seems to have a deeper inclination to contemplate the golf course, Lawsonia is a wonderful place to take that youngster and just let the grandness of the place wash over that lad or lass.

I have been lucky enough to wander around a bit and experience some real exciting golf courses. Each time I get lucky and get to visit and play another exciting great course, I always come home to Wisconsin and make some yearly trips to Lawsonia, and realize there is not much better anywhere that you can go.  It may not be the best, or it may not be "ranked".  But Lawsonia's influence is so much in my mind, that I believe I may actually evaluate all other courses I encounter with imprinted subliminal influences I have absorbed at Lawsonia, and subconsciously apply that standard of playability to whatever else I see.  Mark's 4 characteristis of Langford and Morreau design are right on the money.

I have also been to a few Bendelow courses.  (grew up living next to one 9 holer that NLE)  There is no question in my mind that Bende and Langford are mucho simpatico.  Some of their most dramatic work is so simpathetic in influence that it is truly amazing.  Unfortunately, these architects will likely not receive their due in terms of commanding the same readily recognizable popular recognition as Ross, MacKenzie, Tillinghast, Raynor, Banks, etc.  Probably because too much of their work has been lost to NLE course, or remodelled beyond recognition.  Also Langford and Morreau, and Bende simply built too many 9 holers and they were not as enduring as a desirable and profitable golf operation needed to be as the years went on.  

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

T_MacWood

Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2004, 06:29:56 AM »
Mark
Excellent job....its nice to see Langford get his due. From what I understand Ron Whitten uncovered a boat load of stuff on Langford in a Chicago basement. Hopefully he will some day share the information with the world, it seems a shame we know so little about the man.

Although quite a bit younger, Langford proceeded Bendelow at the American Park Builders. It appears that if anyone influenced anyone--Langford influenced Bendelow. Its been suggested Bendelow's work became more refined after joining APB.

I've always wondered who or what were Langford's influences.

TEPaul

Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2004, 06:57:52 AM »
Tom MacW:

I certainly have nothing concrete, but it'd probably be somewhat safe to say that an early (and maybe significant) influence on Langford may have been immigrant (Fife, Scotland and St Andrews) architect and long time Yale golf coach Robert D. Pryde.

Although, they apparently missed each other by at least a year Langford and this other truly interesting cat in the annals and evolution of American golf architecture may have known each other as they both were possibly significant Yale University team golfers. Did you guess who? Yep, the one and only Max Behr!!

Of course their years on the Yale golf team preceded the great Macdonald/Raynor Yale University course by a good many years.

So where did the Yale team golfers of those early college years of Behr (graduated in 1905) and Langford (graduated in 1909) play their team golf? Perhaps they played it at Pryde's first design in America (New Haven C.C., 1895, NLE)! If that's where the Yale University team did play, including Langford and Behr, and since Pryde built the course, it'd probably stand to reason that Behr and Langford talked or learned some golf architecture in college from Robert D. Pryde and maybe got interested in golf architecture from Pryde and were influenced in architecture by him!

There's no question Behr later played golf at TOC and was  influenced by it. GeoffShac also believes he may be uncovering some symbiotic influences of Behr on MacKenzie and vice versa (California) as well as Behr influences on Bob Jones or vice versa. There's no question they all knew each other and probably collaborated, at least with ideas somehow.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 10:23:13 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2004, 09:05:13 AM »
I recently bought this picture of the 1905 Yale Golf Team photo. It is now hanging in the Team Room up at Yale along with a picture of the 1906 team that they already had. Both teams won the eqivalent of the NCAA championship in golf, I believe.

Tom,

Is Max in there? It may be difficult to see.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 09:09:08 AM by Mike_Sweeney »

Jay Carstens

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Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2004, 10:17:46 AM »
Thank you, Mark.  Thank you very much.  Langford was surely a skilled architect who deserves more discussion.

As a midwesterner who's played a few, my vote would go to Wakonda Club if forced to choose a favorite.  A great opener par-4, two par-3's on the front with alternate greens (are they original?), a cool punchbowl, and lots of variety and topography you wouldn't expect in downtown Des Moines, Iowa.  Quite a hilly site but not a difficult walk really.  

Another underappreciated Langford course that I really enjoy is Omaha CC, again on a site you're not prepared for.  Their superintendent does a fine job IMO of preserving what I understand is basically all Langford.  A few greens were redesigned by Maxwell (early 40's?) and also some tinkering was done by Tillinghast during his tour.  The Maxwell greens are very good and lots of fun.  Just beware, as your next shot might be with different club!
Play the course as you find it

Jeff Goldman

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Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2004, 11:32:06 AM »
Langford may be less known because his work doesn't fit a "famous" profile.  His courses are not on the coasts, in major golf havens or for well-heeled private clubs there.  Nor have his courses hosted many major events (a la Medinah).  Ran wrote that Lawsonia was far superior to Bethpage from 50 yards in, and it is tons of fun to play from the tee as well.  Any comment from those who've played both?  I do wonder if he influenced Bendelow, especially since there seems to be such a difference between Bendelow's better courses (Medinah, OF South, etc.) and more rudimentary efforts.  Certain parts of OF South do remind me of some Langford touches.

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

Mike_DeVries

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Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2004, 12:28:45 PM »
Mark,

Excellent work -- maybe this will bring about a bit of a cult following!  I look forward to getting to many of Langford's designs in the future; he was really imaginative in his routings and his courses are FUN!!!!  I look forward hearing your thoughts on Marquette Golf Club's original 9 holes by Langford as well as Greywalls.  Let me know when your plans get finalized.

Mike

RJ_Daley

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Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2004, 12:49:00 PM »
I think we have to look more chronologically at who actually were the dominant and active golf course architects in Langford's formative or impressionable years prior to attending Yale in '06-'08, if we are to reconstruct where he got his style and influence.  Then we have to see when Langford actually started turning out meritorious golf designs.  It seems to me that Langford could only have been influenced in his youth by courses of Bendelow and Foulis Bros.  They were the only ones that were building courses in the southern Illinois area nearer St Louis, and the Chicagoland and Wisconsin areas where Langford was raised.  Owentisia, Skokie, N Shore, Glen Echo, St. Louis, and Lake Geneva, Chicago CC.  Those were the courses That would have been available to Langford in his impressionable years.  Then, however he got to Yale, he must have seen Leeds Myopia (see TEPaul's complimentary thread on Grandfather of Golf).  But, again the majority of courses that existed at the time time in New York and New Jersey areas were those numerous NLEs that are attributed to Bendelow.  I think that golfers were primarily 9 hole course players then, and that is why so many are NLE, because they were in growing urban areas and were taken over by housing tracts.  By the time Langford was going through Yale, CB and Seth were just starting to know eachother and the big project was the coming at NGLA.  

Somehow, Langford landed the job at American Park Builders, probably as an engineer more than a GCA.  But at American Park Builders in the early years, he was probably chasing Spaulding and Bende for new GCA jobs.  Somewhere in there, he probably reunited with the Foulis Bros., in that Langford and Foulis's were operating golf clubs as managers in Illinois and Missouri areas.  Then, I think Langford got American Park Builders going effienctly and it was becoming a going enterprise and Bende came in for Langford, leaving Spaulding.  After Bende took over at American, and Langford went on to partner with Morreau, both men's best work started to happen.  It was then that they elevated the craft of GCA and I think were somewhat competitive, but on the same wave length of design philosophy and construction and routing tendancies.  Not until the mid 20s to late 30s did the best designs happen for Bende and Langford, and Raynor and Banks also were part of the conventional wisdom of earthworks and patterned holes that we see suggestions of in Langfords work compared to Raynors.

Wouldn't it all be the same sort of mentor-collegue- competitor similarities we see today in Dye, Weed, Doak, Coore, etc?  Doesn't conventional wisdom and construction technique of the period have contemporary trends that one can trace amongst the contemporary schools of GCA through the ages?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike Hendren

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Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2004, 12:56:15 PM »
Does anyone know if Langford had a role in the design  of Jackson (TN) CC?  JCC was constructed about the same time as Langford's Chickasaw CC in Memphis and its radical push-up greens resemble his work.  

Also, did his design career not span a significant number of years.  I believe he did Gatlinburg CC in East TN in the 1950's.

Regards,

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike_Sweeney

Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2004, 01:37:35 PM »
I did get feedback that Yale used to play their matches pre YGC at New Haven CC, however that course is NLE. Also it is believed that Max Behr is one of the two gentleman in the picture on the right. Hopefull Geoff Shaq can confirm.

From the New Haven CC website:

Golf History from 1895-1910:
The Willie Park, Jr. Era
By Art McCafferty

In 1885 the golfing citizenry of Fairfield, CT achieved at least 114 years of immortality by launching the Brooklawn Country Club, now considered the oldest club in the United States. In 1888, New York's St. Andrews opened. Six years later it provided the site for the nation's first invitational amateur contest held in 1894. It, was also the year when some pioneering Michigan golfers teed it up at Roaring Brook Course in Harbor Springs. Roaring Brook Course is gone now, but Wequetonsing Golf Club and Harbor Point Golf Course still remain. And according to Nancy Duray of Harbor Point and "Red" Wilson of Wequetonsing, both of these Harbor Springs courses came on board in 1896. At least this is the point where we will start our coverage. There is a great Michigan map on the wall at Mission Pointe Resort on Mackinac Island. The map highlights Michigan development and also lists the amount of people in the state during that time. At least two of the top five population areas were in the north. Perhaps that is why many of our early golf courses were established there. It was during that time that cruise boats plied the Great Lakes and brought vacationers from Chicago up to Harbor Springs or Mackinac Island. Detroit vacationers were taken to Mackinac Island, the Les Cheneaux islands or Sault Ste. Marie. In the Upper Peninsula, Michigan mines were going full blast and places like Houghton-Hancock and Iron Mountain were densely settled.

Of particular note during Michigan's entry into the golf world, was the arrival of two early Scottish golf designers: Tom Bendelow and Willie Park Jr. Tom Bendelow, who later worked quite a bit with Donald Ross, was responsible for designing over 400 courses in America from 1895 to the early 1920s. His most noteworthy accomplishments outside of Michigan include Medinah #3, Skokie Country Club, East Lake Country Club in Illinois, Garret Park in Indiana, Tripoli in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Lakewood Golf Course in Colorado.

Willie Park, Jr. was the son of four-time British Open Champion Willie Park of Scotland, who won in 1860, 63-66-75. Willie's uncle Mungo won in 1874 and finally, Willie himself won in 1887 and 1889. He was also enough of a promoter to see the virtues of publishing his own instruction books, "The Game of Golf" (1896). The book was widely read at the time, as it represented the first such book on golf. While Willie did win his share of tournaments, his real love was golf club design and golf course design. He became so good at the latter, that he is noted as our country's "First Great Architect." His signature American course is Olympia Fields-North, Illinois. The course dates back to 1922, and it previously hosted the 1928 U.S. Open and the PGA Championships of 1925 and 1961. It also hosted the Senior Open in 1997. In England he is known for his masterpiece, Sunningdale Old, located in Berkshire. It will be the venue for the Solheim Cup match between Europe and America in the year 2000.


« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 01:41:16 PM by Mike_Sweeney »

RJ_Daley

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Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2004, 01:43:53 PM »
Mike, good call, I was remiss to leave out Park's name in some of my speculations... ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

T_MacWood

Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2004, 01:52:45 PM »
I believe Langford was from Chicago...Austin, Il near Oak Park.

Park wouldn't have been at New Haven until sometime after 1916...if I'm not mistaken it was 1920.

TE has the most interesting possiblity -- Pryde. I don't know much about him, but it sure is an interesting coincedence. No doubt Langford's time in the NY Metro area had to have an impact.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 01:54:03 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2004, 03:31:58 PM »
Mike Sweeney said;

"I did get feedback that Yale used to play their matches pre YGC at New Haven CC,"

Well, I'll be damned. A complete guess about New Haven C.C early this morning but after all how many places did the Yale golf team have an opportunity to use as their home course in that super early era of Behr and Langford. Certainly would've been logical though as the long time Yale coach, Robert D. Pryde from Fife, Scotland and St Andrews designed the place according to C&W in 1895!  

RJ_Daley

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Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2004, 03:44:05 PM »
Tom P., interesting that C&W don't have dates attached to the courses attributed to Pryde (but all must have been 1895-1910).  Yet, it is logical that as a coach of the Yale team, he must have had great respect and standing amongst the players and movers and shakers of the game at that time.  Perhaps he was a tireless promoter of the newly burgeoning sport of golf in the U.S. and was the kind of guy that could inspire creativity and vocational goals for his team players.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

George Pazin

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Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2004, 04:29:05 PM »
Very nice piece, including the potos - this is the kind of thing that makes this site so valuable.

Mark Chalfant is hereby exempted from his GCA homework assignment. I hope the rest of you are hard at work. :)

Any Langford courses in or around western PA?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 04:29:59 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2004, 04:32:52 PM »
Langford's 9-holes at Marquette are very interesting. Not great, but very interesting.

The next, prudent move by Marquette G&CC, following the opening of Mike's new Greywalls course, would be to ask DeVries to devise a restoration plan for the Langford nine, which would inevitably include plans to harmonize the David Gill nine, added in the 1960s (?), with the original Langford course.

Sadly, I don't see it in the cards. Nonetheless, if it ever happened, Marquette, MI, of all places (!), would surprisingly turn into one helluva golf destination. Imagine!
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2004, 05:34:28 PM »
Jay Carstens -

While C and W originally credited Omaha to Langford in edition one of their book, its really Wayne Stiles, as they found out later.  Maxwell did some greens which are the members favorites right now.  I didn't know Tillie did anything there, but then, I don't really keep up with everything.

I have some photos of Wakonda on my Website, jeffreydbrauer.com.  In looking through them, I don't remember all the hole numbers, or why I took the shots - I do recall being impressed with the bunker (often, now grass bunker) shaping and wanted to show the style to my guys.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 05:36:18 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2004, 10:32:38 PM »
RJ:

I just did some deep research on Robert D. Pryde and there's a real good reason there're no dates on most of his courses. Pryde was a true roue and one of the most notorious second story men in the history of New Haven and probably Connecticut. For obvious reasons he didn't want his whereabouts known at any particular time due to all the irrate husbands who were out to shoot his ass!

And furthermore, anybody who actually spent any quality time with Max Behr couldn't possibly have been normal.

Brad Swanson

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Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2004, 10:39:04 PM »
As I have said here several times, Wakonda CC is a "hidden gem" of sorts (since I think just about any course in Iowa is hidden in relation to the treehouse) that should be seen if you can get on.  The opening 5 holes put your feet to the fire right away, although they certainly won't play as long as they did when I last played there about 16 years ago.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

T_MacWood

Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2004, 06:55:46 AM »
I believe Langford grew up at Westward Ho!, designed by Tweedie (a friend of Macdonald). Other courses at that time he would have been exposed to: Chicago, Onwentsia and a number of other courses by Tweedie.

Langford was in NY when the NGLA and Piping Rock were built.

He wrote a series of articles on golf architecture for a Chicago newspaper, those articles were put together in a pamphlet called 'Chicago Golf Architecture' (1915). I'm not sure when he began at APB but he was obviously golf design 'expert' early on....or at least he was presenting himself that way.

Colt was also in Chciago in 1913 to design and build Old Elm.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 01:16:50 PM by Tom MacWood »

BCrosby

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Re:William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2004, 08:05:43 AM »
Mike Hendren -

Are the two Langford (?) courses you mention in Memphis and Jackson worth a visit? I may be in that area on business in the next couple of months.

Bob

P.S. I played a lot of high school golf at two Langford courses in northern Indiana - the Culver course and Lake Maxinkuckee. Both are 9 holers, both very funky, fun courses. If in the area, they are worth playing.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 08:08:47 AM by BCrosby »

Jay Carstens

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Omaha CC
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2004, 08:35:03 AM »
Jeff,
That's interesting about Stiles.  I've read both C&W editions and noticed the change from Langford too.  So last year at a pro-am at Wildhorse I saw their superintendent and just had to ask.  He said "Architects of Golf" is wrong and it's Langford.  Anyway, I'd be happy with Stiles too, either way actually.  But that's what he said.  Stiles is probably as underrated as Langford.  Where's his thread?  ;)

Highlands update: nothing major right now.  Moving some dirt around the clubhouse to see the entire practice tee from inside.  Lowering one area, basically.  Also reconfiguring some cart paths to get traffic a little closer to the house.  
Take care buddy,
Jay
Play the course as you find it

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