Has Kapalua Plantation become....

[Ran Morrissett]

....the finest course the pros play each and every year for four rounds (Pebble Beach and Dunhill Cup don't count)?

The answer should certainly be no. Augusta National SHOULD BE the hands down winner but based on my tour last spring,  I don't think so as it lacks great holes (the 3rd off the tee is not happening, the work off the 5th tee is not a sight to behold, the 10th is too one dimensional relative to the original 10th green placement, mangled fairway lines ruin the 11th hole's playing angles and the butchered 13th green complex knock out these once great holes). AN remains a solid 8 on the Doak scale but gee...it was once far more diverse/engaging. Kapalua retains its width, angles of play, variety with the trade winds another HUGE factor in its favor.

Riviera again at one point WAS far superior but few courses can withstand nothing going right for in excess of three decades, culminating with new 8th and 13th greens  

Harbour Town's lack of topographical interest coupled with the fact that it is a full-on housing project hinders its bid, despite a number of first to world class holes.

Thus, I wonder if Kapalua Plantation is indeed the finest course the pros play four rounds on each year? Given how unique it is and given that it takes time to understood how best to play it,  few  pros might agree - but that makes me wonder if we're on to something  

Pity about the 13 inches of rain in the first of January - the course may not be at its best - but I certainly look forward to tonight's viewing  

Cheers,

[A_Clay_Man]

Ran- Pebble doesn't count for other reasons. The pros only golf that course four times once a decade. The yearly trip for the AT&T counts for maybe 3 rounds. (includes practice)

But to your point, what about Westchester?

[Mike_Cirba]

Who's Ran Morrissett?  The name sounds vaguely familiar...

Ran, I know I enjoy watching at Kapalua more than most because of the uniqueness you mention, but it's still tough to beat Riviera, even with the hatchet job done out there.

Wouldn't Golf Magazine sort of put the steroid-injected Torrey Pines in contention, as well?    

[THuckaby2]

Remember also Mike, Kapalua Plantation is most definitely cart-ball.

So it doesn't count for you, right?

 

I am a terrier re this issue...

TH

[henrye]

Well it's that time of year again where we debate the merits of the Plantation course.  I, for one, think it's a fine mountain layout, but its elevation changes simply make it too extreme to be a truly great course.  I think the back nine is far more interesting and appealing than the front.  Yes, there are no 500 yard separations from green to next tee, but Kapalua is a cart ball course first and foremost and in my opinion just can't be considered one of the greats.  It certainly has to rank behind Augusta and Muirfield.  Frankly, there are other layouts in Hawaii that I prefer to Kapalua.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ran,

I don't particularly enjoy watching professional golf on television these days. It's not very exciting.

However, I do make a pointly, annually, to tune into the Mercedes Championship, simply because you tend to see the pros forced to play many interesting shots throughout the event; creative shots; shots we rarely, if ever see played at a typical PGA Tour event in America.

That's a testament to the Plantation course, as I see it. It not only provides for interesting play, but interesting viewing as well. And that's something the PGA Tour should take into consideration when choosing courses for its events, if the idea is to captivate more viewers.

[henrye]

On the Television issue I absolutely agree that the Platation course makes for good viewing, but this in of itself does not make a great course.  While I can't comment on the Player designed course that played host to the President's Cup, that course certainly made for great TV.  

[Dan_Callahan]

But to your point, what about Westchester?

I agree. While Westchester doesn't have any dramatic ocean views, it remains one of my all-time favorite courses that the pros play. It also proves that a course needn't be 7,500 yards to challenge the best players in the world. Plus, it gives me a chance to see Hank Kuehne hit driver off the deck on the 300+-yard 10th hole and fly the ball to the green. (Good lord can that guy hit the snot out of the ball.)

[Scott_Burroughs]

Other than the British Open, very few other venues bring the ground game (and wind, too) into play.

Other good venues the pros (I assume you mean PGA Tour pros) play on 4 times a year not already mentioned:

TPC@Sawgrass
Colonial
Dubsdread

[Dan Kelly]

. . . its elevation changes simply make it too extreme to be a truly great course.

I haven't played Kapalua, so I can't comment on Kapalua, but ...

Does this statement by henrye make any sense to you (in a general sense)? It doesn't to me.

If it makes any sense to you, riddle me this: What is the maximum elevation change that would allow a truly great course?

[BCrosby]

Ran -

Whether or not Kapalua Plantation is better than ANGC, is there any US tournament venue that has - (a) wider fairways, (b) less rough, (c) more wind with a direct impact on shot making, (d) funkier green surrounds, or (e) more ground game play?

And, by the way, aren't these also precisely the same attributes we admire in Golden Age courses?  

Looking at the replay of the Woods/Els match last night, I was struck again by how great KP is.

But more importantly, I was struck by how much of that greatness is based on design values straight out of the Golden Age hymn book.

An extraordinary course.

Bob

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Huckaby;

Don't the pros walk it?

[blasbe1]

henrye,

I have to disagree with your mountain course comment . . . first the Plantation course does not play like any mountain course I've ever played before, so much wind and ground game there it's scary.  For instance, one round I hit a 5-iron second to the 18th that had to roll forty yards and ended up about pin high right of the green; second, why can't mountain courses also be great?

 

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

They do, but they have multiple shuttles from greens to tee, as is required for all but the insane.

I'd love to play it with you... on several tees I'd be able to drink a six-pack waiting for you to catch up, which would be the only way to keep our match fair, as exhaustion would leave you unable to swing a club.

 

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

How many times are they shuttled?

I know that's the case between nines at Kiawah Ocean, as well.  

It does seem sort of ironic in light of the Casey Martin situation.

[Dan_Callahan]

While Kapalua is beautiful to look at, it doesn't offer the kind of challenge that I think is necessary to be a great Tour course. I'm not advocating the ridiculous shoelace fairways of a U.S. Open, but Kapalua did yield a 31-under par performance last year—a pretty remarkable number even for the PGA.

[blasbe1]

The Plantation course offers plenty of challenge, especially with the trade winds.  It's certainly a second shot tract, but that doesn't make it lay down for tour players.  -31 is insane on that course.    

[THuckaby2]

How many times are they shuttled?

I know that's the case between nines at Kiawah Ocean, as well.  

It does seem sort of ironic in light of the Casey Martin situation.

I don't know, Mike.  Man there better be at least 3 or 4 or god help the poor caddies.

But yes, it is most definitely ironic in light of Casey Martin...

The point remains that walking this course is foolhardy, and if walking is what it's all about for a golfer, then don't play here.  That's the kind of biting off one's nose to spite one's face that I never get about this die-hard attitude... But hey, to each his own!

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Will no one come to the defense of ANGC?  I remain astonished by the extent to which it remains a whipping boy on this site.

Regards,

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

You can count on me for that... that has to be the best course the big boys play four rounds on every year.. I just thought that was a given and we were talking BESIDES Augusta, no matter what Ran says!

TH

[George Pazin]

Course wise, it's my favorite watch of the year. The only other regular stop that probably comes close is TPC Sawgrass. I love Riviera, but it seems like you see more creative shots at Kapalua and TPC. It's just so rare to see them throw darts at Kapalua.

I'd have to separate out Augusta - I can't ignore the major related drama. I will say that if SWWOG were to offer two matches with the same players at Augusta and Kapalua, I'd watch Kapalua first.

My recollection is that they use shuttles in 2 situations. I'm walking it if I ever get there. At least the first 18.

[THuckaby2]

George:

Please do walk and report back, if you are able to from your hospital bed.  

Walking there would be so silly, it defies reason to me.  Man there is at least a mile hike down a canyon and then back up the other side from 5 green to 6 tee... not to mention at least a mile from 9 green to 10 tee... added to other climbs to hilltop tees.

Of course, Goodale, Papazian et al walked a course out here called Pasadera CC which makes Kapalua look pancake flat, so nothing would ever surprise me from you walking zealots.

Just if we do this together, which I would love, give me a book to read while I wait for you on each tee, ok?  Either that or the same case of beer I'm gonna take when I do this with Mike Cirba.

 

This weekend shall prove the fallacy of the absolutist walking principles, if your mind is open at all.  

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

The Tour players are shuttled between holes 3 times.  Between 5-6, 8-9, and 9-10.

[Jimmy Muratt]

A couple others that belong in the upper echelon of courses played on tour are:

Muirfield Village  (Memorial Tournament)
Quail Hollow Golf Club  (Wachovia Championship)
TPC at Sawgrass  (Players Championship)

Quail Hollow received rave reviews from the players last year, I remember hearing several say they thought it was the best the played all year.

[Big B]

The shuttles are Mercedes Benz 4x4's.  I would also add Riveria to the great courses the pro play during the year.