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Brian Phillips

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The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« on: December 08, 2003, 11:22:41 AM »
I have used this book as a guide (and I mean guide) for a number of years.  The introduction states that every rating is done by anonymous raters that turn up without announcement and rate the different courses all around Europe.

This book rates 1000 courses in Europe.  Does anybody know how many raters they use and how it is done?  Do they have a number from each country?

The reason I ask is that the 2004 edition has come out and has included the new Trent Jones jr. golf course north of  Oslo and given it 18 points out of a possible 20.

Now to let you understand what that means the following courses also received 18 points and no course has ever received 20:

Sunnningdale Old and New
Gleaneagles Kings
Machrihanish
Moortown
El Saler
Cruden Bay
Formby
Loch Lomond
Royal St. Davids
Royal Liverpool
Rye

Just to name a few.

Does anyone out there have any idea how the rating is done?

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2003, 11:28:05 AM »
Amazon have them. 14 quid plus postage.  The ratings are usually pretty good as in pretty close.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2003, 11:28:43 AM »
Brian,

I would consider the book useless.  Let's face it RTJ had lots of kids and grandkids.  Figure the total at close to fifty.  As you well know, it has been five hundred years since France has defeated an army bigger than 20.  I am sure RTJ simply called Peugot and said he would conquer the nation if his course did not receive a rating larger than 18.   ;D
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

ForkaB

Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2003, 11:34:09 AM »
Brian

Have you seen or played, or even designed(!) the course?  If os, does it comes close to what the guide implies?

PS--Peugeot makes very good cars.  As good or better than most of those made in Michigan, I might venture....... ;)

PPS--that group of "18 pointers" is not a bad one.

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2003, 11:40:01 AM »

PS--Peugeot makes very good cars.  As good or better than most of those made in Michigan, I might venture....... ;)


The problem is that they rattle at all boarder crossings (Most assume it is because of the natural instinct to tremble with fear) and the engine falls out if a single German part is put in.  ;)
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

ForkaB

Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2003, 11:43:47 AM »
Dave

Why is Bo wearing a yellow lei in your picture.  Was that one of the years Michigan went to the Hula Bowl?

PS--the French kicked English butt in 1066.  No reason they can't raise their game again in the future!

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2003, 11:45:20 AM »
Rich,

I have played the course and I have to very careful what I say now...

Let's just say the area it was designed on is clay...the ground is overly undulated farmland with absolutely no trees whatsoever.

There are two or three huge fake lakes used for cut and fill elsewhere. The design is pretty good considering the location and the greens are great designs. The Par 3's are mediocre to say the least.

I would give it a 15-16 out of 20 if I was being nice.

I am just curious to the background of the setup of the guide when it compares a brand new course like this on CRAP land and rates it only 1 point behind every other amazing course in Europe including Britain and Ireland...do you know what I am getting at?

I haven't yet seen the review but the club is already using the points on it's website.  Apparently it is ranked 20th in Europe but all my old copies of the guide don't use a ranking system they just give points.

My copy should arrive this week.

Brian
« Last Edit: December 08, 2003, 11:46:38 AM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2003, 01:32:44 PM »
Go to Google.  Type in French Military Victories.  Press I'm feeling lucky.  Plus ca change.....

I know a little bit about the Peugeot Guide because I was asked to do a few courses some years ago, but the fee for writing them up was some way less than the cost of the green fee.  The standard pro forma was as concerned with the health spa facilities of each course (not much likelihood in Britain!) as much as the design of the course.  I won't give away who looked after the British entries then other than to say she had been a very distinguished English amateur international.  She got one of her equally distinguished Welsh internationals to do the Welsh entries.  I would trust both of them implicitly, though I don't always agree with their verdicts.  In the British entries we now have some very peculiar rankings, too, with some very average contemporary courses ranked more highly than some of the older gems that GCAers would love.  I have no knowledge of who does the rest of Europe.

However, I find the tone of the write ups patronising, aimed at beginners, utterly repetitive and in some cases pretentious.  Some of it is pure gobbledegook.  If you know our satirical magazine, Private Eye, you'll understand what I mean by saying that it is full of candidates for Pseud's Corner.  It has little bar graphs to indicate how many trees are in play, water in play and even a bar graph for 'relief'.  I take it this means how hilly it is.  

A few examples (from the 1993 edition):  'While you are here, make the most of your time and see the very pretty old town of Norwich.'  'Rather a long course, Punta Ala is much kinder when you tee off further forward.'  'On most holes you can play your "personal par" (with handicap strokes.'  'This comprehensive course is a tough examination to the most suitable format for amateurs, namely match-play.'  '....mid- and high-handicappers should not bank too much on carding a good score.  They are better off just playing for the fun of it.'  'Difficult, intelligent and well landscaped, the Duke's is a solid test of golf, best played from the front tees.'  'A great course, to be played off the front tees.'  'There are other, less fashionable and perhaps more creative architects, but the Golden bear label is a quality guarantee even if all his courses tend to follow more or less the same model....'  '... fine connoisseurs of golf such as Steel and Pennink, who never care unduly about excessively sophisticated details.'  'Only one green is blind, which reflects the thinking behind the whole course, namely golf is for everyone....'  'We recommend playing here with golfers of your own level in order to better appeciate the tactical challenges....'  'This will appeal to long hitters who in every case won't think twice about playing the course from the back tees.  More reasonable players will find the course long enough from the "normal" tees; after all, why suffer when you don't have to?'

What a waste of precious space!

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2003, 01:38:33 PM »
Green Umbrella Golf/Quadrant Video www.greenumbrella.co.uk
 
They list a book 'Golfing in Britain and Europe' Hardback 160 pages £9.95.  'Comprehensive guide to golf in UK, Europe and North African countries (that border the Mediterranean and welcome golfers).  From Finland in the north to Turkey in the south the guide lists courses that welcome visitors and provides information on nearby accommodation and facilities.  A large, beautifully illustrated, colour A4 format.'  It doesn't say who the publisher is, nor gives an author.  May be worth a glance.  I don't know it.  

I have to say that Hamlyn explored the possibility of their own European golf guide but their sales reps throughout Europe couldn't drum up enough support, so it may be that Peugeot's Guide is more an advertising tool than a money spinner.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2003, 02:08:08 PM »
I like the Peugeot book.  The small paragraphs on each course are usually accurate.  The numbers are however often way off.  Just ignore them and go with the write up.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2003, 02:20:42 PM »
Mark,

Are you saying that they usually get someone who lives in the country to visit the course and do a rating?  Does this mean that the course in Norway may have only had ONE visit?

So if I have understood you correctly, they might have asked someone in Norway to visit the course and write a review and that is it...one or two reviews and it makes the book.

That seems unreal to think how much some people rely on this book.  The course in question has already gone out with a press release quoting the points..

Unbelievable...

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Brian

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Jim_Michaels

Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2003, 04:24:06 PM »
i like this book very much for the phone numbers, directions and the overall listing. who cares about the ratings? it's still a great resource.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2003, 03:00:55 AM »
Jim,

I agree but if a book like this goes out with scores that many believe and use as a 'bible' especially here in Norway then I find it a bit scary that the score given on certain courses is from one or two raters.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

ForkaB

Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2003, 04:27:16 AM »
Go to Google.  Type in French Military Victories.  Press I'm feeling lucky.  Plus ca change.....


Mark.  That is incroyable!  As funny as any JakaB post, at least with my twisted and short-attention span sense of humour!

Thanks.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2003, 06:23:08 AM »
As far as I know only one rater visits the course - at least that was the case in the three courses I was asked to review.  There was certainly no guideline on rating, as might be provided to markers of public examinations by the moderators.  As it happens my three entries (done some time in the late 90s are still there, verbatim.  No one has ever asked me to go back to see if they are still there!  

If you want a real horror story, I was having coffee with the secretary of a very pleasant Home Counties course which used to make Golf World's British Isles Top 100 and had at one point made the Top 50.  When it slipped out of the Top 100 he rang the magazine to find out why.  Which of the panel of reviewers had visited the course?  None had.

As far as the Peugeot guide is concerned I agree with those who say that it's a useful tool for addresses, phone numbers and locations and if you read between the lines the descriptions can be useful, but the ratings are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2006, 09:19:34 PM »
Mark Rowlinson,

Have you gone through the 2006 / 2007 edition, and per your post prior to this one, do your comments remain in this edition?

For Mark or anyone able to answer: Three things I've always liked about the guide -- would be interested in comments as I find Rowlinson's guide A#1 -- or would that be "Le Ne Plus Ultra / Trois Etoile":

1. I rely heavily on this book for trips to the Continent -- is something better out there?

2. One of the "commitments" in the Peugeot Guide ("ghost visits") mentions that teams of inspectors "stringently apply a standard method of assessment."  By your experience in the 1990s apparently no such method existed then -- do you know if it does now, and if so, what might that method be?

3. Do you know of another guide that contains an "Architects and Courses" section?  I like this section; no other baedeker I've found offers such a cross-indexing.

Some years ago on this site there was much discussion of a "Michelin star system" for rating courses.  Anyone still interested in that should study the Peugeot approach...

ForkaB

Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2006, 03:33:15 AM »
Some years ago on this site there was much discussion of a "Michelin star system" for rating courses.  Anyone still interested in that should study the Peugeot approach...

Mark

With a 20 point system it sounds more like Gault-Millau than Michelin. ;)

Tout le monde

Check out that tip on the older part of the thread re typing "French Military Victories" into Google and punching hte "I feel lucky" button.  After you get up off the floor after looking at the iniital result, follow the link given.  It's pretty good too....

Mark Bourgeois

Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2006, 09:05:27 AM »
Rich,

Now, that is funny, or should I say, tres drole!

"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure." -- Jacques Chirac

"As far as France is concerned, you're right." -- Bob Dole

But, Rich, remember, in hell, who the cooks are...

Sean: As a logistical aid, I found the Peugeot very good in GB&I, actually.  But the book I actually use to make decisions is The Times Guide.  Second to none, IMHO.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2006, 02:40:47 PM »
I haven't seen the latest Peugeot and I don't know if the judging criteria have changed in any way.  I can say that my old Times Guide has bitten the dust - too expensive to keep it up to date on a minimal budget.  Hamlyn (who published it) reckoned the AA Guide was the market leader.  

I don't bother with guides any more.  If the likes of Paul, Sean, Rich and the rest of the gang haven't heard of it or don't rate it I shall not bother to go.


Mark Bourgeois

Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2006, 03:13:53 PM »

I don't bother with guides any more.


You're well past that, now, aren't you Mark?  But now I must find a way to nurture my sole copy of your guide. I fear for the spine...and have no desire to replace it with AA. :'(

Kyle Harris

Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2006, 03:33:43 PM »
Brian,

I would consider the book useless.  Let's face it RTJ had lots of kids and grandkids.  Figure the total at close to fifty.  As you well know, it has been five hundred years since France has defeated an army bigger than 20.  I am sure RTJ simply called Peugot and said he would conquer the nation if his course did not receive a rating larger than 18.   ;D

Guess that meatchicken history class didn't tell you about Napolean.  :P

I'll give you a hundred years.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2006, 04:04:40 PM »
Ooh, Kyle, you're in trouble on this one.

The Minard map at the top tells all you need to know:
http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/posters

Kyle Harris

Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2006, 05:19:38 PM »
Ooh, Kyle, you're in trouble on this one.

The Minard map at the top tells all you need to know:
http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/posters


Mark,

Seeing as Napolean needed to conquer the majority of Europe to start said campaign - I think I'm safe.  :)

Andy_Lipschultz

Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2006, 05:41:27 PM »
One of the more interesting things about the courses in France, is that all the flagsticks have white flags.

(What can you say when the topic is France; it's the comedy equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel).

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Peugeot Golfguide 2004
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2006, 05:47:38 PM »
Thanks for the insight into how it's put together Mark, it's hard to put any trust in something where you don't know how or more importantly by whom it's put together.  Despite that I've always found it quite useful, because it covers such a wide geographical area and only really attempts to cover the best/most interesting.  However I too find it frustrating and wonder how West Berkshire gets in and New Zealand does not. (I cannot bring myself to comment again on the execrable VALE)

The other day I played Pennard with Sean and reported here how I was amazed that the current edition of Golf World posts the top 200 courses in GB&I and it's nowhere on the list. With Ashburnham falling at least 150 places I wonder if anyone visited Wales this time?

So I went back to the confidential Guide where Tom gave it a 6 "one of my all time favourites...".  He finishes with "The course is home to Vicki Thomas, who played on the last four British Curtis Cup squads; next to Pennard, other courses must look tame to her."

Now gentlemen just suppose that this is the same lady Mark is referring to, what score would she give to her home course?

Peugeot Guide "18" - putting it on a par with those above.  

PS I’m also looking after my Times Guide, the first Golf book I’ve owned.
Let's make GCA grate again!

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