Since Doak is easily amused…

[Mike Hendren]

Can a course be too great?   Are Pine Valley or Oakmont for example truly superior to “plenty good enough”  - say Moraine or Glens Falls.


Just like the Tooler Twins, “nothing is dead solid perfect.”


There.

[Ira Fishman]

Willie Mays. Edwin Moses. Simon Biles. Tiger. MJ. Nope. Greatness is never overrated. And my list just consists of some Americans—think about the whole world. Greatness is never overrated.


Ira

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike -
I know Sean is fond of saying that 'greatness is overrated', and I think I understand what he means by that. But since it's you asking the question, and I know of your interests in this regard, I'll respond by saying: 'I don't know if greatness is overrated -- but if it is, then so is holiness'.

So, there. How about that?

[John Kavanaugh]

Everything beyond loneliness is overrated.

[Mike Hendren]

P2.  Holiness is aspirational.  Even for the saints Wesley’s perfection is not achievable in this lifetime.  Death is essential.[size=78%] [/size]


Ira, we spent many hours in elementary school debating who was better - Mays or Mantle. I saw Mays play at Busch Stadium but was just as thrilled to see Curt Flood who’s not in the HOF.  I’d just as soon see Bernard King as MJ.

Shinnecock is the best US course I’ve played but I’d still split 10 rounds equally between it and Moraine.

[Mike Hendren]

A better question is whether “greatness” is relevant to playing the game.

[John Kavanaugh]

A better question is whether “greatness” is relevant to playing the game.

How can it be if you think Shinnecock is the greatest course you have ever played when your game clearly can not reveal it’s greatness?

[Mike Hendren]

Barney, indeed my game has slipped but I was totally unaware that I’m an idiot.  Thanks for the heads up.

Cheers.

[John Kavanaugh]

Barney, indeed my game has slipped but I was totally unaware that I’m an idiot.  Thanks for the heads up.

Cheers.

I read your original response. Sorry.

[Ira Fishman]

P2.  Holiness is aspirational.  Even for the saints Wesley’s perfection is not achievable in this lifetime.  Death is essential.


Ira, we spent many hours in elementary school debating who was better - Mays or Mantle. I saw Mays play at Busch Stadium but was just as thrilled to see Curt Flood who’s not in the HOF.  I’d just as soon see Bernard King as MJ.

Shinnecock is the best US course I’ve played but I’d still split 10 rounds equally between it and Moraine.

And I would split evenly between Golspie and RD, but as good as Flood or Paul Blair were, they were not Mays or Mantle. And Bernard King is under appreciated, but he was not MJ. True greatness is never overrated. It is just what it is.

[Don Mahaffey]

Greatness is not overrated. Its just rare. But experiencing greatness is not the only worthwhile experience.
In athletics, its experiencing competition at high levels that stirs the soul. Yes, watching Brady vs Manning in their prime was great competition, but so was Brees vs Ryan, or Wilson vs Stafford. 


The Old Course is great, but it's not the only course I want to play when I visit the region.




its crazy to think you can't enjoy a golfing experience just because the course isn't ranked as high as others. Equally crazy to think you cant appreciate greatness when lucky enough to experience it.

[Jim_Coleman]

    Many people have played PV after a massive, almost impossible buildup. I don’t know one who was disappointed.

[Matthew Rose]

Pebble Beach actually exceeded my expectations.

[Peter Pallotta]

A better question is whether “greatness” is relevant to playing the game.

Mike, as with Ally's recent thread I'd say that the one great golf course I've played was great precisely because it provided for great golf -- in all its many and varied aspects & forms, and from start to finish. Granted, I didn't step off the 18th green and, as the saying goes, 'immediately want to get back to the 1st tee and play it again'. But I think that's because I was completely satisfied after the first go around -- and for me 18 holes of great golf is pretty much all I can handle and appreciate and enjoy in a day.

[Sean_A]

Can a course be too great?   Are Pine Valley or Oakmont for example truly superior to “plenty good enough”  - say Moraine or Glens Falls.

Just like the Tooler Twins, “nothing is dead solid perfect.”

There.

I don't think so. But your question does beg the follow up question, too great for what or whom?

Ciao

[Sean_A]

Mike -
I know Sean is fond of saying that 'greatness is overrated', and I think I understand what he means by that. But since it's you asking the question, and I know of your interests in this regard, I'll respond by saying: 'I don't know if greatness is overrated -- but if it is, then so is holiness'.

So, there. How about that?

I know you know exactly what I mean. But for the benefit of others; these days mediocrity is applauded and declared great. Its a throwaway term used without grounding in what the word implies. So much in golf is supposedly great that there is little room for plenty good enough. And what is the difference between great and plenty good enough? I know it when I see it, but it isn't translatable to a set of top 100 criteria.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I would suggest that greatness is comparative.
Unless you've played a course that you consider lessor how do consider a different course to be greater?
In addition, familiarity can lead to lack of appreciation whilst a one-off experience in wonderful weather at the best time of year for course conditioning can give a false impression as can vice versa.
atb

[jeffwarne]

"Bestowed" greatness can often have an adverse effect on the golf soul, culture and spirit of the population that seek and inhabit such.


Quirk,"holiday" status, slower turf,primitive bunkers,simple clubhouses, simple two wheeled trolleys and perhaps a pedestrian hole or two...... are highly effective "impediments" to such population, generally producing a time-tested and reliable percolation.

[Tom_Doak]

Can a course be too great?   Are Pine Valley or Oakmont for example truly superior to “plenty good enough”  - say Moraine or Glens Falls.


Just like the Tooler Twins, “nothing is dead solid perfect.”


There.

Mike:


So far you've thrown Pine Valley, Oakmont and Shinnecock against the wall, but you have yet to make an argument why any of them would stick.


Are you assuming that the definition of "greater" = that someone should always prefer to play the greater course and never get tired of it?  Are you saying that most golfers get tired of greatness?

[John Mayhugh]

Greatness is not overrated. Its just rare. But experiencing greatness is not the only worthwhile experience.

its crazy to think you can't enjoy a golfing experience just because the course isn't ranked as high as others. Equally crazy to think you cant appreciate greatness when lucky enough to experience it.

Exactly right.

[Ronald Montesano]

I think that your original and pithy question of Can a course be too great? is leading us, but I'm not certain to where.
Can time of day, weather, course conditioning, context of round, human interaction, equipment, personal fitness, mitigate a course's greatness?

[JMEvensky]

Willie Mays. Edwin Moses. Simon Biles. Tiger. MJ. Nope. Greatness is never overrated. And my list just consists of some Americans—think about the whole world. Greatness is never overrated.


Ira

Ira, just a shout out for putting the Say Hey Kid on a golf course architecture website. He was the GOAT--full stop.

[MCirba]

"Bestowed" greatness can often have an adverse effect on the golf soul, culture and spirit of the population that seek and inhabit such.


Quirk,"holiday" status, slower turf,primitive bunkers,simple clubhouses, simple two wheeled trolleys and perhaps a pedestrian hole or two...... are highly effective "impediments" to such population, generally producing a time-tested and reliable percolation.

Jeff,


I'm not sure I completely understand where you're going here but I really like it. 

[Ben Hollerbach]

Under the context of comparing one thing to another, the more we use a pinnacle example as a comparative benchmark the more likely we are to undervalue everything else in relationship to that benchmark. The more that benchmark is viewed as perfect, the more we apply a discount in our comparison.

So while the course may not be too great, we often use its greatness to improperly undervalue other courses compared to it. Even if our evaluation is not directly comparative, but rather more merit / points based. If a new entry is evaluated to be at or near the level of something we consider great, it often forces us to take a step back an re-evaluate how the new entry was graded, or how the evaluation system may be flawed. But it will rarely force us to re-evaluate the greatness benchmark as possibly something less than we thought it was.

[Mike Hendren]

If Cindy Crawford was Oakmont she would have had that mole removed.  Almost perfect.