Looking for History

[Connor Lewis]

Ladies and Gentlemen,


While I have been reading from this discussion group for years, I have finally joined in.


As many of you know, I have a podcast named “TalkinGolf” History. I am always looking for possible show topics and subject matter experts to have on the show. Many of you have already joined me.


If you have an Idea for a show let me know. I have Mike Cirba on deck for a couple of shows in 2022 involving Walter Travis.


I am also looking for subject matter experts for:


AW Tillinghast
George C Thomas
L&M
James Braid


What stories do you think need to be shared?


Yours in Golf History,


Connor T.

[Cal Seifert]

Welcome Connor. I have been listening to your podcast for quite some time. My favorite was the two part series with Anthony Pioppi on Seth Raynor. I saw your massive giveaway on twitter, wow! Pro shops beware!  I applaud your efforts to spread the history of the game and look forward to seeing your posts on here.

[John Foley]

Connor - welcome aboard. Love he podcast!!

[Bret Lawrence]

Connor,


I’d love to hear more about Willie Park Jr. and Robert White.  Robert White was one of the early turf specialist of golf and it would be interesting to follow his and other turf specialists path as the game of golf grew throughout America.  White contributed a lot to the game of golf and is often overlooked for his contributions to the game in America.


I enjoy listening to your podcasts and I am looking forward to your upcoming Walter Travis podcast with Mike. Keep up the good work.


Bret

[Wayne_Kozun]

Ladies and Gentlemen,


While I have been reading from this discussion group for years, I have finally joined in.


As many of you know, I have a podcast named “TalkinGolf” History. I am always looking for possible show topics and subject matter experts to have on the show. Many of you have already joined me.


If you have an Idea for a show let me know. I have Mike Cirba on deck for a couple of shows in 2022 involving Walter Travis.


I am also looking for subject matter experts for:


AW Tillinghast
George C Thomas
L&M
James Braid


What stories do you think need to be shared?


Yours in Golf History,


Connor T.

Certainly Phil Young is one of the main experts on Tillie, I assume that you are aware of that as he wrote a book on Tillie several years back.  I am not sure if he is still around GCA as there was this issue of sketches signed by OTM, Mac back in 2014...


Actually if you want to do a podcast, how about on this sketches kerfuffle: 
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59667.0.html
https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/tillinghast-student-of-golf-course-architecture-2/

[Sven Nilsen]

I am also looking for subject matter experts for:

AW Tillinghast
George C Thomas
L&M
James Braid

Tillie - Phil Young is the guy, although he doesn't participate here much anymore
Thomas - Shack or Tommy, ditto on the participation
L&M - Dan Moore and Mark Chalfant, we're all waiting for Dan's book to come out
Braid - Not sure if we have an expert, but the search function provides a number of interesting threads including this one - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49043.msg1108078.html#msg1108078


Make the search function your friend, there's a ton of information buried in the back pages hereabouts that is easily accessible.  One of the benefits a site like this has over other medium's like FB.

[Kurt Everett]

Charles Banks might be an interesting podcast.

[Daryl David]

A. V. Macan would be interesting.  Jeff Mingay would be the guy.

[Wayne_Kozun]

A. V. Macan would be interesting.  Jeff Mingay would be the guy.

Or to continue on the Canadian theme - Stanley Thompson would be interesting and Ian Andrew is a great resource on Stanley.

[Connor Lewis]

Connor,


I’d love to hear more about Willie Park Jr. and Robert White.  Robert White was one of the early turf specialist of golf and it would be interesting to follow his and other turf specialists path as the game of golf grew throughout America.  White contributed a lot to the game of golf and is often overlooked for his contributions to the game in America.


I enjoy listening to your podcasts and I am looking forward to your upcoming Walter Travis podcast with Mike. Keep up the good work.


Bret

Bret, have you listened to my two part podcast on the Park Family with Mungo Park? It’s one of my favorites.


As for Robert White- was he also the clubmaker in St Andrews who Tom Stewart apprenticed under?


Hoping to have Mungo on again when his book is published to speak more on Musselburgh Links.


Many thanks!

[Connor Lewis]

A. V. Macan would be interesting.  Jeff Mingay would be the guy.

Or to continue on the Canadian theme - Stanley Thompson would be interesting and Ian Andrew is a great resource on Stanley.

I am ashamed to say I don’t know much about Macan. Need to fix that.


I spoke to Ian a couple of months ago and he will be joining me on the podcast hopefully in 2022 to discuss Thompson;)

[Ira Fishman]

1. The quest to find the Raynor routing for Cypress Point.


2. What really did Maxwell do at ANGC.


3. A round table with Mike Young, John Kavanaugh, and Mark Fine (ok, not history but would be fun).

[Bret Lawrence]

Connor,


I have not listened to the Park family podcast.  I will be sure to listen to that this weekend.


Robert White was actually a school teacher in Scotland before he came to America in 1894.  He was one of the earliest pioneers in American golf.  He did make clubs, but he is not from the same White family you are referring to. He was the first pro to bring wooden blocks to a shoe last factory in order to mass produce wooden heads.


Robert White was a founding member and first President of the PGA of America.  He was also the first President of the PGA of Chicago which predated the PGA of America by a decade.  He played in numerous US Opens often not making the cut, but participated as late as 1921 at Columbia Country Club which he helped Travis and Harban get ready for the championship.


He worked with Watson at Ravisloe, Worthington at Shawnee, Raynor at North Shore and Mountain Lake, Travis and Harban at Columbia Country Club and Potomac.  He built Shorehaven in CT for Willie Park when he became ill and returned to Scotland.  He also built a few course of his own design. He was regarded as the first pro to ever attend “farmer school”.  He attended these courses from 1903-1913.


He was also a founding member of the American Society of Golf Course Architects.  He has a pretty good resume for a guy who doesn’t get a lot of credit.  I thought he would be an interesting person to follow through history.


Bret

[Greg Holland]

Three I would be interested to learn more about are:  John Low, John Peacock, and Perry Maxwell. 

[Peter Pallotta]

History as history would be a good topic.
It seems to me that with some of the great golden age American courses, their 'history' was being written before they even opened for play, and their subsequent 'narratives' were built upon that same (ostensible) foundation and steadily reinforced ever since, with neither their greatness nor their 'self-understanding" openly being questioned or cast into doubt (except perhaps fairly recently, in these last 15 years).
In short: I think exploring the dynamics of American-style marketing and brand promotion, the people and mechanisms involved back then in the conscious creation of almost immediately 'iconic' golf courses (and associated private members clubs), could be very interesting.

[Sven Nilsen]

It seems to me that with some of the great golden age American courses, their 'history' was being written before they even opened for play, and their subsequent 'narratives' were built upon that same (ostensible) foundation and steadily reinforced ever since, with neither their greatness nor their 'self-understanding" openly being questioned or cast into doubt (except perhaps fairly recently, in these last 15 years).

The implication here is that there are courses that are considered great solely because of their preordained "history."  Can you provide a couple of examples?


Sven

[Peter Pallotta]

It seems to me that with some of the great golden age American courses, their 'history' was being written before they even opened for play, and their subsequent 'narratives' were built upon that same (ostensible) foundation and steadily reinforced ever since, with neither their greatness nor their 'self-understanding" openly being questioned or cast into doubt (except perhaps fairly recently, in these last 15 years).

The implication here is that there are courses that are considered great solely because of their preordained "history."  Can you provide a couple of examples?
Sven

That's not the implication at all. Maybe it's what you assumed I meant. In that first line I call them great, ie accept as a given that the ratings-rankings and expert opinion that designate them as such are correct.

[Mark Mammel]

Connor-for some more recent history of the USGA, the US Open, and its courses Ron Read from Carmel CA is a great resorce and would make a good interview. He started with the Northern CA Golf Assoc in 1970, saw much of the growth of the Monterey Peninsula and was a key player in the development of Spanish Bay. He became Western Director of the USGA in 1981, and was the first-hole announcer for players at the US Open for a couple of decades. He worked with Spaeth, Hannigan, Sandy Tatum, on and on. He knows virtually everyone from golf in that era and has many wonderful tales to tell. Happy to provide more info directly if you think this might be interesting.

[Sven Nilsen]

It seems to me that with some of the great golden age American courses, their 'history' was being written before they even opened for play, and their subsequent 'narratives' were built upon that same (ostensible) foundation and steadily reinforced ever since, with neither their greatness nor their 'self-understanding" openly being questioned or cast into doubt (except perhaps fairly recently, in these last 15 years).

The implication here is that there are courses that are considered great solely because of their preordained "history."  Can you provide a couple of examples?
Sven

That's not the implication at all. Maybe it's what you assumed I meant. In that first line I call them great, ie accept as a given that the ratings-rankings and expert opinion that designate them as such are correct.

The implication of your statement is that the later day questioning of their greatness is justified, and it is was the pre-written history that prevented the questioning from happening earlier.  No assumptions, just reading what you wrote. 


If that is not what you meant, what's the point of the last part of your statement?

[Peter Pallotta]

If instead of looking to play 'gotcha' you read it carefully (including the "in short" re-iteration), you'd notice that I'm using 'history' and 'narratives' and 'self-understandings' interchangeably, and focusing on that element of "the story" -- perhaps including the question (then and now) of greatness but certainly not limited to it. In that context, the point of the last part of my statement is the same one you seem to want to make in one of your tag lines, i.e. "As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."
But again, I know that wasn't implying that their greatness should be questioned; there are much more interesting questions/topics for Connor to explore.

[Sven Nilsen]

If instead of looking to play 'gotcha' you read it carefully (including the "in short" re-iteration), you'd notice that I'm using 'history' and 'narratives' and 'self-understandings' rather interchangeably, to mean in essence the "story of" -- perhaps including the question of greatness but certainly not limited to it. In that context, the point of the last part of my statement is the same one you seem to want to make in one of your tag lines, i.e. "As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface." But again, I know that wasn't implying that their greatness should be questioned; there are much more interesting questions/topics for Connor to explore.

I used to work for a partner at a law firm that said no matter how clear or concise you think your writing may have been, if someone misinterprets it, it wasn't clear enough.

[Sven Nilsen]

1. The quest to find the Raynor routing for Cypress Point.

Connor's already tackled part of this story.

https://talkingolf.fireside.fm/37

[Ira Fishman]

1. The quest to find the Raynor routing for Cypress Point.

Connor's already tackled part of this story.

https://talkingolf.fireside.fm/37

Sven, thanks.

[Bill Gayne]

Connor,


Not a whole lot to add on your opening post. I really enjoy your podcasts in particular the Scottish history of the Park and Morris families.


Bill

[Connor Lewis]

I am always open to suggestions, so I thank you all for your feedback. I was supposed to release an amazing podcast for the US Open but it breaks my heart to have to shelve it. Not only is it a story that most people don’t know, it’s a story that has multiple twists and turns. I was invited to attend the Curtis Cup at Merion and follow it with two days at Pine Valley so the show was bumped for my selfish pleasure.


I would very much like to dive back into my architect series with episodes dedicated to:
Tillinghast
James Braid
Old Tom Morris (as an architect)
Willie Park
Stanley Thompson
Herbert Fowler
George C Thomas


I also have been working on an episode dedicated to Marion Hollins which I think will br very special.


The show is interesting to me- I know it has a fairly large audience, but I go through the highs and lows in my output. I never dreamed I would be 84 shows or coming close to 100 shows- it seems like such an absurd amount of time. BUT then I attend an event like the Curtis Cup and people come up to me and say the nicest things about the show and it literally blows me away. Partially because I am still shocked it has an audience.


So thank you.


What other architecture stories am I missing. You folks are the experts.