[Joel_Stewart]

Myopia #3 & Chechessee #16 both fit the bill.

When I played Myopia, #3 as a par 3 played longer than #1 which is a par 4?  I've never understood that.   

[Anthony Gray]

#3 at Orinda is 260 and driver for most from the blue tees (which many play because the course is only about 6300 yds).  Downhill helps, but usually there is a slight breeze in your face to negate the elevation benefit.

A great example of/rationale for why I play the same set of tees throughout the entire round, and why I don't find it 'fun' or 'interesting' to move from one set to another as I see fit, ie because I'm then sapping out of the design the very variety the architect intentionally put there to interest and challenge and beguile me. The adrenaline rush of getting to a Par 3 that calls for a 260 yard drives lies in the fact that it's so unexpected! Like most others, I assume, I too would automatically chose the blue-6300 yard tees, and likely already have in my mind a pretty good and accurate idea of what that would 'play' like ie, the typical hole lengths for the Par 3s and 4s and 5s.....and then suddenly I'm faced with the 3rd!!
Fantastic!




Excellent point. Now that I am on the seniors tees I have found that architecture comes into play as intended. I now have much more risk reward options presented by the architecture  which has made the game more enjoyable. 

[Anthony Gray]

I’m a fan of driver length par 3s that have an element of mystery.  A blind or semi-blind shot, like you might encounter on a gambling second shot on a reachable par 5, can be very stimulating and rewarding.  Until the last 25 years or so, #2 at Wyantenuck Golf Club in Great Barrington MA was a great example.  246 yards, aimed at a pole on a hillside.  You approached the crest of the hill in anticipation of what you would see: did I judge the carry and roll just right and I have a birdie putt?  Or did my shot carry too far and I’m scrambling from the back?  Did I perhaps hit a soft spot and come up short?  Many of my favorite holes of all makes and models include this element of mystery as to the outcome of your play.


 

 This is it. Mystery. Playing the ball closer to the ground and watching the rub of the green.

[Anthony Gray]

My old home course had a longer par 3. Had a half punch bowl green area. I could have forced a 5 wood but I always just slapped a driver and rolled it on the green. Loved that hole.


 There can be more options with these holes too. Just how much of the driver do you hit. Is it a full driver or a three quarter?  Do you play it low and run it? Maybe more options than the 160 yard Renans that are all over the place. Would love to see more of them.

[Kalen Braley]

Anthony F***ing Gray?  Welcome back my man ! 

One of my favorite longer par 3's is the 17th at Redlands Mesa.  Think it played ~220 on the day I played there with another GCA legend Andy Troeger.

[Pete_Pittock]

Surprised Oakmont's 8th hole hasn't been mentioned, at 288.   
For my length the biarritz at Mid-Ocean qualified, but upon checking, it is around 240, but near sea level.

[Adam Uttley]

They can certainly be great holes.  I think Calamity at Portrush can play driver quite easily but my favourite was the NLE 6th on the Valley course at Portrush.  A delightfully wicked hole.


JCB has an extremely fun drop-shot driver Par 3.  I believe there is one at Anstruther too?

[Steve Salmen]

So great to see you back after self imposed or otherwise exile. Be well, amigo.

[Anthony Gray]

So great to see you back after self imposed or otherwise exile. Be well, amigo.

 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[David_Tepper]

More often than not, #18 at Brora (201 yards to a green with a steep front) and #17 at Golspie (211 yards) are driver par-3's for this short hitter. 

[Andrew Harvie]

The golf ball goes too far now. The Talking Stick and Rolling Green mentions are good, but I am not particularly long and I back foot hook a 4 iron from 260 or so and watch it chase (as the holes were intended).


Many of the drivable par 4's these days seem to be closer to a par 3. The expectation is to make 3 by hitting it onto the green, which is essentially a long par 3. I for one like the drivable holes where it's impossible to hit driver onto the green so it's more strategic, like the 6th at Pacific Dunes.


At St. George's here in Canada, many of the members don't like the current 10th hole, so they play it as a 280 yard par 4 and it might as well be a par 3. I find it quite boring that way.

[Jeff Schley]

A couple that come to mind. 

• Ganton 17 - wonderful hole and can run it in
• Galloway National 17 - bail out right, need to draw it in or play a high driver that carries 235+ over the bunkers
• Cedar Rapids 12 - this hole needs it's own thread, biarritz par 3 from 280+ back tee

[Ken Moum]

One thing that always amazed me growing up in northwest Minnesota was that almost every nine-hole course had a par three over 200 yards and a four that was under 300.


These were courses laid out mostly in the 50s or earlier.


And Shawnee CC in Topeka where I played for about 20 years was laid out by Donald Ross somewhere around 1920 and it originally had a 220-yard par three and one just under 200.


Both of which would have been driver holes with hickory.

[Brett Meyer]

You'd have to be a pretty short hitter to need a driver for the 6th at West Sussex; it's 220, but about 30 feet downhill.
A great example that I've seen recently is the 5th at Brautarholt in Iceland. It's about 240 from the tips over a lava sand beach. A bit of a reverse image of the 6th at West Sussex, with plenty of room to approach from

Careful with generalisations.
Golfers come in all sorts of shapes and sizes and strengths and ages and two genders as well and quite a few don’t hit the ball too far irrespective of what colour of tee marker they’re playing from.
Atb.

I understand that, which is why I said that lengthwise it compares with the 12th, which few would call a drivable par 3. I understood the issue to be par 3s which require the longest clubs even for long hitters. For many golfers, most of the par 3s are drivable par 3s; my dad probably hits driver on half of them!

But I was surprised at how short the 6th at West Sussex played. On the card it looks like a driver par 3 but plays as a mid-long iron one for someone who drives the ball in the ~250-260 range.

[Niall C]

I'm with Dr Gray, there is nothing better than a long par 3/short par 4. I'm very surprised that Tom thinks most golfers don't like the long par 3. The response on here suggests otherwise but then this treehouse might not be wholly representative of golfers at large.


What this thread does do though is allow me to repeat my story about the 16th Carnoustie. Legend has it when Gary Player played it in one of the early Opens he stood up on the tee and gave it everything he had and still came up short. Two local worthies were watching this and as he stomped off the tee one of them asked him what club he had hit, to which he gruffly replied "driver". At that point the local worthy turned to his mate and said "see, I told you he under-clubbed".


Niall

[Sean_A]

A couple that come to mind. 

• Ganton 17 - wonderful hole and can run it in
• Galloway National 17 - bail out right, need to draw it in or play a high driver that carries 235+ over the bunkers
• Cedar Rapids 12 - this hole needs it's own thread, biarritz par 3 from 280+ back tee

I wish 17 at Ganton was a short 4 and bit longer. The green is a cool one to have to approach.


Ciao

[Lou_Duran]

I'm with Dr Gray, there is nothing better than a long par 3/short par 4. I'm very surprised that Tom thinks most golfers don't like the long par 3. The response on here suggests otherwise but then this treehouse might not be wholly representative of golfers at large.


What this thread does do though is allow me to repeat my story about the 16th Carnoustie. Legend has it when Gary Player played it in one of the early Opens he stood up on the tee and gave it everything he had and still came up short. Two local worthies were watching this and as he stomped off the tee one of them asked him what club he had hit, to which he gruffly replied "driver". At that point the local worthy turned to his mate and said "see, I told you he under-clubbed".


Niall

I was under the impression that Tom Doak and many here don't have much respect for the concept of par.  As I age and certain holes are less accessible "in regulation", I am moving toward that POV.


Hopefully, Niall, you had arrived at the conclusion (on the treehouse and reality) much earlier.  I don't know that most golfers like a par 3 they can't reach with their best shot, but I think that variety is likely what most of us want.  How hard is it to set up a golf course with 3 or 4 different challenges on the par 3s?  Apparently it is because I typically have no more than a two club difference on four shots to the 3s, most often shorter irons.


As to long 3s, #5 at OSU's Scarlet course played around 235 yards from the back when 250y was a good drive.  It was a hole that fell just right in the routing, sandwiched between a reachable in two par 5 and one that required two long shots to get to wedge distance.  Whenever I left #5 with a 3, I was ready to tackle #6.  At the NCAA's final in the mid-70s, most players hit fairway woods to #5 on the mild last day.  Craig Stadler hit a towering long iron right at the hole that fell a few yards short of the green.  He proceeded to slam the head of the club on the tee marker snapping it off (don't remember if he got up and down).


The new East (Hanse) Course at the PGA Headquarters facilities in Frisco has a 280+ yard par 3 to an elevated green guarded on the left with the sloping ground by a large nest of nasty bunkers.  It is routed into the prevailing wind and the safe play to the right leaves a pitch to a green that runs away.  There will be some long clubs hit on this hole by the pros, drivers on occasion even.       

[Duncan Cheslett]

I can think of a few par 3s where I choose to take driver when I could reach with a shorter club.


Cavendish 13 is an uphill 180 yarder with a green benched into a hillside which kicks in from the right. A low half driver hit to the right of the green invariably runs up and around the back of the green before rolling down towards the pin. I have no other club in my bag with which to execute this shot.


Silloth 12 and 16 both favour a running shot of 180-200 yards. A low punched driver is perfect, especially when the wind is blowing the wrong way.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm with Dr Gray, there is nothing better than a long par 3/short par 4. I'm very surprised that Tom thinks most golfers don't like the long par 3. The response on here suggests otherwise but then this treehouse might not be wholly representative of golfers at large.

That's not to say I never build them, just that I know they aren't going to be popular.  Even the professionals, who don't have to hit driver, don't like all the long par-3 holes they play on Tour.  Koepka much prefers the shorter par-3 holes that are severe if you miss the green, something you can't really do on a hole that requires driver for most golfers.


The 11th at Memorial Park is 235 yards, and slightly into the wind.  In the tournament two weeks ago, that was a 4-iron for most guys, but a lot of them were coming up short.  I think they just don't want to hit 5-wood, or whatever hybrid club they have in their bags.  That's one of the few things I like about these holes, they reward the guy who isn't embarrassed to pull driver and swing a little slower if that's what it takes.

[Tim Martin]

I'm with Dr Gray, there is nothing better than a long par 3/short par 4. I'm very surprised that Tom thinks most golfers don't like the long par 3. The response on here suggests otherwise but then this treehouse might not be wholly representative of golfers at large.

The 11th at Memorial Park is 235 yards, and slightly into the wind.  In the tournament two weeks ago, that was a 4-iron for most guys, but a lot of them were coming up short.  I think they just don't want to hit 5-wood, or whatever hybrid club they have in their bags.  That's one of the few things I like about these holes, they reward the guy who isn't embarrassed to pull driver and swing a little slower if that's what it takes.

I watch this scenario play out over and over the older I get. I see players continually pull less club than needed because golf is a game where “macho”often has the upper hand. It is particularly galling in a four ball game where my partner is the culprit.   It also relates to tee selection but that’s for another thread.

[Andrew Harvie]

I'm with Dr Gray, there is nothing better than a long par 3/short par 4. I'm very surprised that Tom thinks most golfers don't like the long par 3. The response on here suggests otherwise but then this treehouse might not be wholly representative of golfers at large.

That's not to say I never build them, just that I know they aren't going to be popular.  Even the professionals, who don't have to hit driver, don't like all the long par-3 holes they play on Tour.  Koepka much prefers the shorter par-3 holes that are severe if you miss the green, something you can't really do on a hole that requires driver for most golfers.


The 11th at Memorial Park is 235 yards, and slightly into the wind.  In the tournament two weeks ago, that was a 4-iron for most guys, but a lot of them were coming up short.  I think they just don't want to hit 5-wood, or whatever hybrid club they have in their bags.  That's one of the few things I like about these holes, they reward the guy who isn't embarrassed to pull driver and swing a little slower if that's what it takes.

I think a nice Juxtposition of what you're talking about is the 12th and 13th at Rock Creek Cattle Company. The 12th at 155 yards is a lot more demanding than the 265 yard par 3, 13th. I see a lot more photos on Instagram of the 12th than the 13th!

[Tom_Doak]

I think a nice Juxtposition of what you're talking about is the 12th and 13th at Rock Creek Cattle Company. The 12th at 155 yards is a lot more demanding than the 265 yard par 3, 13th. I see a lot more photos on Instagram of the 12th than the 13th!

The 12th was a hard hole to build.  Wanted to make it tighter, but it was so rocky down there we had to clear it pretty wide so that missed shots wouldn't be playing off the rocks.  That's kind of true for every hole at Rock Creek, but it showed up most prominently on the short par-3.

[Jim Lipstate]

The main problem with a par 3 requiring driver is the blow to the ego when unsuccessful. Having said that I like variety in the par 3’s on a course. I have played too many courses where the yardages on all the par 3 holes were similar. Give me a wedge hole, a short iron and mid-iron hole and I would not mind a long hole if not too unforgiving and giving at least the illusion of being able to post a decent score.

[David_Tepper]

Let's not forget #16 & #17 at Lincoln Park in San Francisco, both in the 215-220 yard range. #17, with the Golden Gate Bridge in the background, could be one of the most photographed holes in golf.

http://www.lincolnparkgolfcourse.com/home.html

[Joel_Stewart]

Let's not forget #16 & #17 at Lincoln Park in San Francisco, both in the 215-220 yard range. #17, with the Golden Gate Bridge in the background, could be one of the most photographed holes in golf.

http://www.lincolnparkgolfcourse.com/home.html

Except the views are blocked by trees due to mismanagement.

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