[Mike Hendren]

The #1 putter on the PGA Tour is the Taylormade Spider X.   How many strokes would you or a professional need to switch to a Spalding Cash In putter.


Bogey

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not really sure, but I did visit the Taylor Made "Kingdom" several years back, and they showed me some data and allowed me to test roll some putts with my smooth faced putter vs. their grooved putter face, and the results convinced me that grooved putter faces may have had more good effect than over sized drivers.

[Peter Pallotta]

Interesting, Mike.
Made me think: from what I've seen (live or on tape), the top players of the past from Hogan, Nelson and Snead to Nicklaus, Trevino and Miller had no problem whatsoever hitting greens in regulation, and would compare favourably with today's top players in that regard.
If they weren't then scoring as well as modern-day pros, it must have to do with making putts -- and that involves both the putter technology and (more so, I imagine) the smooth, fast and true running nature of today's greens.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Interesting, Mike.
the top players of the past from Hogan, Nelson and Snead to Nicklaus, Trevino and Miller had no problem whatsoever hitting greens in regulation, and would compare favourably with today's top players in that regard.

In 1980 the Masters and US Open were played at 7,040 and 7,076 yards. If you compare the distance of the courses then and the driving distance of those player to the driving distance of the players today, the Masters and US Open today should be played somewhere around 8,080 and 8,120 yards. 600-700 yards longer than they play it today.

When you look at the situation backwards (modern distance/length vs. historic distance/length) to match today's tournaments the 1980 Masters and US Open should have been played at 6,670, and 6,650 yards. 400 yards shorter than they played it 40 years ago.

So when looking at the players from the past, how are you comparing them to the players today?

Are you trying to say that players from yesterday;with their respected equipment, playing on their respected length courses in their respected conditioning; scored not quite as well as players today; playing respectively better equipment, on courses playing respectively shorter, with more favorable conditions; so it must have been their putting?

[Jim Sherma]

Distance might not be the whole issue that explains scoring gains, but it is still certainly an issue.


It is THE issue when it comes to sustainability of the game's physical footprint, potential liability concerns, and changing the balance of rewards between skill and athleticism.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ben - as Jim says below, distance gains is not only a KEY issue, but THE issue when it comes to sustainability. I was only noting that today's golfers score better than their counterparts of yesteryear -- in a stat I remember seeing, 9 out of 10 of the best 'scoring seasons' in tour history have come in the last 20 years -- the only exception being Nelson's stunning 13-in-a-row, 18 win season in 1945; and I was suggesting that the improvement/uniformity in putting surfaces along with putter technology might explain more of this scoring difference than we realize.

[Mike Hendren]

I asked because after a long layoff I resumed playing with a Ping B61 putter - a darned good putter and hardly a dinosaur.  After a couple of months I bought a Ping Signa 1 Valor mallet and immediately shaved 3 to 5 strokes from my score. 


Bogey

[Thomas Dai]

As a slight aside, stand at the edge of the putting green during an average playing day, ie not during an elite event, at most courses for say 30/60 mins and observe most players putting strokes. Almost all the putting strokes are so bad, frequently truly awful, that the player is gonna have a huge miss or poor lag ratio irrespective of what kind or price of putter they use. And they read putts and aim poorly too.

Atb

[Kalen Braley]

As a slight aside, stand at the edge of the putting green during an average playing day, ie not during an elite event, at most courses for say 30/60 mins and observe most players putting strokes. Almost all the putting strokes are so bad, frequently truly awful, that the player is gonna have a huge miss or poor lag ratio irrespective of what kind or price of putter they use. And they read putts and aim poorly too.

Atb

Thomas,

This is not limited to just putting thou...its basically most shots they hit!

And that's why the average joe is a 15+, not a 2...

P.S. Michael I am curious how many data points you're basing this on.  Anyone can get hot with the putter for a few rounds, but if you've measured this over 20+ rounds that's a damn impressive gain!

[Jim Hoak]

Related to this--
Justin Thomas, in commenting yesterday on the new USGA/PGA Tour local rule limiting the length of clubs to 46", said that a far bigger negative issue in his mind is the "arm-lock" style of putting, that he would ban.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Scoring is so multi-faceted, multi-variabled… you can't say it's any one thing at all.

Players are better now. Equipment is better now. Courses are (generally) more difficult now.

[Mike Hendren]

When factoring in conditioning, today's tour venues might be easier than ever:

https://www.augusta.com/masters/history/augusta-national-hasnt-always-been-picture-perfect

Bogey

[Niall C]

Perhaps the "real" issue is that we use scoring as a metric for evaluating courses. Lets just accept that the elite guys are very very good without buggering about with the course in order to peg them back to some notional number.


Niall


ps. Bogey - I have an old tour bag full of Ping putters including several B61's, B62's, B63's, Eye 52's etc. They might not improve my score but they certainly are lovely putters to use.

[Peter Flory]

As far as I can tell, the putting stats haven't substantially improved on tour over the past quarter century.  The putts per GIR leader has improved by about .047 strokes per round and that doesn't factor in that the average proximity to the hole has probably improved due to the courses playing shorter. 

In terms of strokes gained putting, they only started keeping that in 2004.  There are no noticeable trends there with Tiger being at 0.853 strokes gained per round in 2004 and Oosthuizen being at 0.824 in 2021. 

I would suspect that if there has been any improvement, it is a mix between alternate grips getting more popular, better putters, and better greens (including the ability to tap down spike marks). 

[Jeff Schley]

As far as I can tell, the putting stats haven't substantially improved on tour over the past quarter century.  The putts per GIR leader has improved by about .047 strokes per round and that doesn't factor in that the average proximity to the hole has probably improved due to the courses playing shorter. 

In terms of strokes gained putting, they only started keeping that in 2004.  There are no noticeable trends there with Tiger being at 0.853 strokes gained per round in 2004 and Oosthuizen being at 0.824 in 2021. 

I would suspect that if there has been any improvement, it is a mix between alternate grips getting more popular, better putters, and better greens (including the ability to tap down spike marks).

Yes I can't find any statistical data that is significant to think that better putting is the reason for lower scores. I have looked, so if some have much more data or conclusions I'd love to see it.

[Tom_Doak]

As far as I can tell, the putting stats haven't substantially improved on tour over the past quarter century.  The putts per GIR leader has improved by about .047 strokes per round and that doesn't factor in that the average proximity to the hole has probably improved due to the courses playing shorter. 

In terms of strokes gained putting, they only started keeping that in 2004.  There are no noticeable trends there with Tiger being at 0.853 strokes gained per round in 2004 and Oosthuizen being at 0.824 in 2021. 

I would suspect that if there has been any improvement, it is a mix between alternate grips getting more popular, better putters, and better greens (including the ability to tap down spike marks).

How far back do the stats go for "average distance from hole" after the approach shot?  That's the most impactful number on strokes gained, and it factors in long driving [via shorter approaches] appropriately.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I don't have it in front of me, but on tour, hasn't the 50/50% distance increased slightly, from maybe 6 foot to 8 foot?


I am not sure how many ways/times we can debate the distance issue.  We always go back to PGA Tour driving distances.  For 99.9% of golfers, driving too short is still the biggest issue, and putting/short game is still the biggest obstacle to scoring, as it always has been.


And, for public golf, the real distance issue is that from the front door to the first tee, as close in golf courses get closed as being too valuable for real estate and gas reaches $3 per gallon, while time constraints continue to increase for most of us.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I don't have it in front of me, but on tour, hasn't the 50/50% distance increased slightly, from maybe 6 foot to 8 foot?

Yes. It used to be 7'10" within the last 20 years (early ShotLink era, when they had rudimentary stats for this type of stuff). Before that it was even shorter.

[Steve Lang]

   Bogey,


Depends on whether one grew up playing Putt-Putt Golf or not... when I was on P-P Tour as a jr.,  it was all feel and imagination at play and then raw nerve on 18 to get the replay   if you weren't orange by that time! 


feel & imagination more important for the short game, ehh?

[Ian Andrew]

It is if you want people on adjacent roads, in adjacent houses or in adjacent facilities to be safe. When a golf course is on a small inner city property there's nowhere to go to address technology. It's beginning to hurt inner city golf. Public facilities (here) are looking at these liabilities, the cost of dealing with union crews and wondering whether its better to shut down than invest.


Distance may not effect you, it may help you, but its impacting someone. Someone is paying for it. But that requires a 10,000 foot view, not a 6 foot view to see it. It's playing a bigger role each year in my business. It's not fun.

[jeffwarne]

It is if you want people on adjacent roads, in adjacent houses or in adjacent facilities to be safe. When a golf course is on a small inner city property there's nowhere to go to address technology. It's beginning to hurt inner city golf. Public facilities (here) are looking at these liabilities, the cost of dealing with union crews and wondering whether its better to shut down than invest.


Distance may not effect you, it may help you, but its impacting someone. Someone is paying for it. But that requires a 10,00 foot view, not a six foot view to see it. It's playing a bigger role each year in my business. It's not fun.

This.It's not really just a PGA tour issue.
It always amazes me that the discussion is always whose greens are fastest, whose rough is deeper, whose course is toughest and whose slope is highest,whose course is longest(yet rarely do those tee boxes see markers), but then absolutely don't make me roll back to clubs from 20 years ago that wait for it...
make the courses tougher..
With the proliferation of shorter tees built in the last 20 years, it would seem a simple adjustment to move up if a rollback occurs if it dramatically alters one's game..
But people don't really want tough, they want to say their course is tough.

[Thomas Dai]

+1 to Ian and Jeff’s posts above.
Atb

[Carl Nichols]

As far as I can tell, the putting stats haven't substantially improved on tour over the past quarter century.  The putts per GIR leader has improved by about .047 strokes per round and that doesn't factor in that the average proximity to the hole has probably improved due to the courses playing shorter. 

In terms of strokes gained putting, they only started keeping that in 2004.  There are no noticeable trends there with Tiger being at 0.853 strokes gained per round in 2004 and Oosthuizen being at 0.824 in 2021. 

I would suspect that if there has been any improvement, it is a mix between alternate grips getting more popular, better putters, and better greens (including the ability to tap down spike marks).

Isn’t stroked gained a relative measurement, that is, it’s a measurement against the field?  So if all players suddenly got a lot better at putting but by the same amount, the strokes gained putting stats would be the same?  Same with driving—if all players suddenly got 30 yards longer, the stroke gained driving stats would be the same?

[Matthew Mollica]

The #1 putter on the PGA Tour is the Taylormade Spider X.   How many strokes would you or a professional need to switch to a Spalding Cash In putter.

I suppose it depends on what people see as the real issue.


Golf's diminished sustainability (especially in more urban / metropolitan settings)
resource (water, land, chemical) use
cost per round / yearly membership subscription
need for safety / containment fencing
increased frequency of litigation due to boundary issues
changing fabric of the game with less diversity in mode of play
time required to walk 18


None of these are changed markedly by the putter are they?

[jeffwarne]

The #1 putter on the PGA Tour is the Taylormade Spider X.   How many strokes would you or a professional need to switch to a Spalding Cash In putter.

I suppose what people see as the real issue.


Golf's diminished sustainability (especially in more urban / metropolitan settings)
resource (water, land, chemical) use
cost per round / yearly membership subscription
need for safety / containment fencing
increased frequency of litigation due to boundary issues
changing fabric of the game with less diversity in mode of play
time required to walk 18


None of these are changed markedly by the putter are they?

and no one has changed or moved a green yet due to the minority anchoring or arm locking.
But the drumbeat against technique innovation continues, while the hot ball and face race continues yearly.
My favorite is the "there have been no material advances in club/ball tech in 20 years" yet no one playing for a living is playing a 20 year old ball or driver.

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