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mike_beene

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2021, 11:50:12 PM »
So we keep hearing golf and clubs are in a decline? It doesn’t feel like it from this thread. Are daily fee places seeing an uptick with Covid. When a club gets a new member or two a year what happens when the waiting list gives up and the pipeline is dry?

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2021, 09:31:55 AM »
Golf is in such a boom where I live that it’s become almost impossible to get tee times. A new driving range opened, with a $2,700 membership, and it sold out almost immediately. For a driving range. Selfishly, I preferred when golf was in decline.

Tim Martin

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2021, 09:55:44 AM »
Golf is in such a boom where I live that it’s become almost impossible to get tee times. A new driving range opened, with a $2,700 membership, and it sold out almost immediately. For a driving range. Selfishly, I preferred when golf was in decline.


The last thing I knew hitting balls at a driving range was not remotely the same as playing a round of golf. I wouldn’t be interested in a membership that was $2,700, $270 or even $27. Capitalism is alive and well.

Rob Marshall

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2021, 02:43:29 PM »
Golf is in such a boom where I live that it’s become almost impossible to get tee times. A new driving range opened, with a $2,700 membership, and it sold out almost immediately. For a driving range. Selfishly, I preferred when golf was in decline.


I did too. I liked when my club had 250 members. As of today we are full with a waiting list at 320.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

jeffwarne

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2021, 03:21:38 PM »
Golf is in such a boom where I live that it’s become almost impossible to get tee times. A new driving range opened, with a $2,700 membership, and it sold out almost immediately. For a driving range. Selfishly, I preferred when golf was in decline.


as I said, golf booms are great for everybody but golfers...
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2021, 06:20:30 PM »
Golf is in such a boom where I live that it’s become almost impossible to get tee times. A new driving range opened, with a $2,700 membership, and it sold out almost immediately. For a driving range. Selfishly, I preferred when golf was in decline.

as I said, golf booms are great for everybody but golfers...


...And Supers trying to keep up with all the extra bodies around and damage to the course...

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2021, 02:26:11 PM »
a history of regularly playing over 25 rounds a year when life permits.  If life has rarely permitted you to play over 25 rounds in a year than I would prefer you wait to apply for membership.


I figure for many clubs the person who pays their dues and never plays is the best type of member.




Regarding deals..outside of the US are people forgetting about the likes of Brora, Carne and others that were really struggling at the start and offered some really good deals.  Brora was 5K, Carne was 3k...for life.
what are annual dues at Brora?  5k for life sounds like a lot if annual dues are only a few hundred pounds.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2021, 03:02:50 PM »
a history of regularly playing over 25 rounds a year when life permits.  If life has rarely permitted you to play over 25 rounds in a year than I would prefer you wait to apply for membership.


I figure for many clubs the person who pays their dues and never plays is the best type of member.




Regarding deals..outside of the US are people forgetting about the likes of Brora, Carne and others that were really struggling at the start and offered some really good deals.  Brora was 5K, Carne was 3k...for life.
what are annual dues at Brora?  5k for life sounds like a lot if annual dues are only a few hundred pounds.


No, the five thousand is your membership fee for life. That's kinda the point of life membership.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2021, 05:55:32 AM »
a history of regularly playing over 25 rounds a year when life permits.  If life has rarely permitted you to play over 25 rounds in a year than I would prefer you wait to apply for membership.


I figure for many clubs the person who pays their dues and never plays is the best type of member.




Regarding deals..outside of the US are people forgetting about the likes of Brora, Carne and others that were really struggling at the start and offered some really good deals.  Brora was 5K, Carne was 3k...for life.
what are annual dues at Brora?  5k for life sounds like a lot if annual dues are only a few hundred pounds.


No, the five thousand is your membership fee for life. That's kinda the point of life membership.


I believe Mike's point is that if annual dues are low then why stump up 5k for a life membership?


Logic doesn't always come into it. I paid £3400 for a Life Membership at Carne in 2006. I think my current cost per round is still about £500! Don't regret the investment for a second though. It's lovely to have that affiliation, albeit from a great distance.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2021, 06:49:02 AM »
a history of regularly playing over 25 rounds a year when life permits.  If life has rarely permitted you to play over 25 rounds in a year than I would prefer you wait to apply for membership.


I figure for many clubs the person who pays their dues and never plays is the best type of member.




Regarding deals..outside of the US are people forgetting about the likes of Brora, Carne and others that were really struggling at the start and offered some really good deals.  Brora was 5K, Carne was 3k...for life.
what are annual dues at Brora?  5k for life sounds like a lot if annual dues are only a few hundred pounds.


No, the five thousand is your membership fee for life. That's kinda the point of life membership.


I believe Mike's point is that if annual dues are low then why stump up 5k for a life membership?


Logic doesn't always come into it. I paid £3400 for a Life Membership at Carne in 2006. I think my current cost per round is still about £500! Don't regret the investment for a second though. It's lovely to have that affiliation, albeit from a great distance.


Oh yeah, I misread the post.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2021, 07:48:13 AM »
The five grand is to sponsor the locals continued cheap golf.
Cave Nil Vino

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2021, 09:11:46 AM »
The five grand is to sponsor the locals continued cheap golf.


Isn't this generally the case with all GB&I clubs that offer overseas memberships and time slots for green fees?

For example, I don't think the membership rates at Belmullet GC are overly cheap for that region (Full membership is €700). The course is owned by a community controlled company, which is located in an area which traditionally has higher unemployment rates than the more populated regions.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 10:10:11 AM by Dónal Ó Ceallaigh »

Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2021, 10:29:38 AM »
what are annual dues at Brora?  5k for life sounds like a lot if annual dues are only a few hundred pounds.


It appears they are 415 pa.  310 pa if not local.  So a bit over 12 years or 16 years at current rates and less time if fees increase.


I hope to live more than 16 years.  I doubt I'll get out there 16 times.  I've yet to play at two places I hold a a membership.  So as Robin states, not always logical.


One could say paying 5 digit initiation and then high 4 digit annual dues is illogical as well.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2021, 10:45:11 AM »
...And Supers trying to keep up with all the extra bodies around and damage to the course...


And usually with less labor than they have ever had.  Visited a high end resort last week, which used to have a crew of 19, now they have 6, not because they want to, its just that (as the super and I lamented) as kids we thought golf course jobs were the bomb, now, if they can run a register at $16 per hour and not get up at 4.30AM every day, why wouldn't they?


As to initiation fees, I doubt I still have the newspaper clippings, but in my 30+ years in DFW, club memberships have always gone way up and down, depending on the economy and demand.  I remember it spiking similarly at least twice. Not sure what it tellsus but I always figured even the six figure income guys were typically spending on the edge, maxing out whenever the economy was good, and getting a bit conservative when they might lose their jobs, or whatever.


Varying economies affect public courses similarly.  When it dips, players go from the $100 courses to $60 or so courses that really aren't that much (if any) a drop in quality from the premium ones.  Ditto, often, with resort play, when those who were thinking of going to Bandon choose some closer regional resort that they can only pay a few nights hotel and travel, etc., over what it takes to get to a remote national/international level resort.


The good news is, few dedicated golfers give up golf when times are bad.....they just focus on cheaper ways to play.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2021, 12:41:53 PM »
The five grand is to sponsor the locals continued cheap golf.


The five grand is to ensure the course doesn’t close and return to grazing.


To Donal’s point, Carne has less than 100 full local members. Without overseas members, there would be no Carne.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2021, 01:57:04 PM »
So how can we shrink the game?  ;)   

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2021, 03:30:24 PM »
The five grand is to sponsor the locals continued cheap golf.


The five grand is to ensure the course doesn’t close and return to grazing.


To Donal’s point, Carne has less than 100 full local members. Without overseas members, there would be no Carne.


Thanks Ally. That makes me feel a wee bit proud!
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2021, 04:41:36 PM »
So how can we shrink the game?  ;)


Crowded courses with 5 hour rounds with do the trick.

Jon Sweet

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2021, 07:19:10 AM »
:P


In our small slice of heaven here at the Jersey Shore they have jumped substantially since COVID


I watched the Sopranos, from all indications there is no heaven on the Jersey Shore.  ;D

David_Tepper

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Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2021, 12:04:19 PM »
:P


In our small slice of heaven here at the Jersey Shore they have jumped substantially since COVID


I watched the Sopranos, from all indications there is no heaven on the Jersey Shore.  ;D


That's North Jersey. Completely different state.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

JWinick

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2021, 03:15:46 PM »

David,


Don't you think the $8 trillion in stimulus was why this fragile economy is the reason why?   Its a house of cards and watch out when reality hits.   Initiation fees will be cheap again!



"Household Net Worth in U.S. Hits Record"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-23/household-net-worth-in-u-s-hits-record-on-surging-home-values?srnd=premium

Jeff Schley

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Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2021, 03:53:09 PM »

David,


Don't you think the $8 trillion in stimulus was why this fragile economy is the reason why?   Its a house of cards and watch out when reality hits.   Initiation fees will be cheap again!



"Household Net Worth in U.S. Hits Record"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-23/household-net-worth-in-u-s-hits-record-on-surging-home-values?srnd=premium
Yes very much agree. The macro economics right now have to concern Powell and his colleagues. Imagine they discuss like, "we have to project confidence that we are managing this and in control, but s... this isn't good." Their mechanism to slow inflation is interest rates and slowing of their purchasing of bonds and mortgage backed securities. When this slows (pumping the brakes) they will know how soon they can raise interest rates. Of course the covid situation makes this like skeet shooting off a crab boat in the Bering Sea. This is why we can just cavalierly put another 4-5 trillion into the debit column like drunken sailors.

If your returns are keeping up with inflation, you are losing purchasing power. Interest rates will rise eventually (sooner I hope than later) and good for savers which should bring inflation down. Unfortunately the debt is now more expensive with debt service. So NO now isn't the time to keep spending for everything under the sun, although with the 2022 election likely swinging back red, the blue side is seeing this with a sense of urgency while they can.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2021, 07:58:41 PM »
JW & JS -

I was simply reporting economic data. Clearly there are a lot of people feeling pretty flush these days.


As far as where things stand 2, 3 or 5 years from now, your guesses are as good as mine, maybe better! ;)

DT

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