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Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« on: September 14, 2021, 10:21:03 AM »
I haven't really paid attention lately as I'm not looking for another club. However I talked to a friend of mine who was saying he was going to join another club (not a top 100 club) and the initiation fee was 90k. I recall when I was looking 4 years ago it was I think 40k. Also he was going to be on a 1-2 year wait list.

I know the location is paramount, but has golf really gotten this hot for private club memberships again? I know golf rounds were up, but didn't realize the initiations went crazy as well.

Edit: I did just check and one of my own clubs did double since 2017 as well, so I guess so.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2021, 10:29:06 AM »
 :P


In our small slice of heaven here at the Jersey Shore they have jumped substantially since COVID

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2021, 10:49:13 AM »
I haven't really paid attention lately as I'm not looking for another club. However I talked to a friend of mine who was saying he was going to join another club (not a top 100 club) and the initiation fee was 90k. I recall when I was looking 4 years ago it was I think 40k. Also he was going to be on a 1-2 year wait list.

I know the location is paramount, but has golf really gotten this hot for private club memberships again? I know golf rounds were up, but didn't realize the initiations went crazy as well.

Edit: I did just check and one of my own clubs did double since 2017 as well, so I guess so.

Shit, I would wait a few years and see what gives.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2021, 11:37:48 AM »
If you're looking for a non-resident membership:


My daughter lives nearby to Stonewall( Doak) and French Creek(Hanse) in northern Chester County, PA. During a recent visit, I stopped by both clubs. Stonewall has a 10 year waiting list for a non-resident, non- equity membership for 12 rounds per year! French Creek has a non-resident membership with a modest initiation fee and yearly dues; however, play costs $90/round. 
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Nick Schreiber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2021, 11:42:14 AM »
Ahhh, this is another topic on which I'm in need of some good insights! Thanks for bringing this up Jeff. I realize a national club is a different beast, but in my models for Old Barnwell, I am attempting to ensure an affordable membership price tag while not losing my shirt, which is pointing me in the direction of more founding members and more personal investment (neither is ideal!).


As a national member at Chechessee (my only membership), I'm very fortunate to have paid what I feel is a bargain for initiation and currently pay sub $4k in annual dues. I am not asking for anyone to share any state secrets, but it can be very difficult to get a sense of what golf-only clubs are currently charging. At Bulls Bay here in Charleston, the local initiation fee has gone from $25k two years ago to $50k, with annual dues at about $6k. The wait list is closed as far as I know.

Knowing that location and quality of club will vary immensely, I'd still be grateful for any insights on golf-only clubs (national or local) that you all would be willing to share.


Much obliged!


Nick

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2021, 11:49:27 AM »
Median US household income in 2020 was $67,500.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2021, 12:41:56 PM »
General question: when I read "the initiation fee is 50K," how much would that person typically get back if they leave the club? None? Half? Most? I know it varies...but what is typical?

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2021, 01:30:12 PM »
I don't think you get back anything at my club.


We had to institute a waiting list and dramatically increase the initiation fee last year because so many people were joining.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2021, 03:00:21 PM »
General question: when I read "the initiation fee is 50K," how much would that person typically get back if they leave the club? None? Half? Most? I know it varies...but what is typical?


Matt-The term “throwaway money” is often used to describe initiation fees. There are some clubs where you may get back something when you go but there are plenty where you get nothing. I’ve seen them instituted at clubs that didn’t have them pre COVID-19 and others that have increased in the same time period. From 2009 to 2019 the initiation fee was negotiable at some places whereas that ship has now sailed.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 03:12:33 PM by Tim Martin »

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2021, 03:20:58 PM »
In Naples Florida close to Marco I wanted to get on the waiting list of a club that’s just ok. Nothing great an pre-COVID they never had a waiting list. I called them at the end of last month and they wanted a non-refundable deposit of $5000 to just get on the waiting list.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 09:05:33 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2021, 06:10:43 PM »
Re: Venetian



Refundable Golf Membership $12,500 Initiation Fee
Non-Refundable Golf Membership $7,000 Initiation Fee


https://www.venetiangolfandriverclub.com/venetiangolfandriverclub.com/files/VEN%20Membership%202021%20LD.pdf
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 07:16:21 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2021, 07:41:03 PM »
Golf booms.


Not so great for golfers.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2021, 08:55:21 PM »
When I joined WBYC in 2017 I think I was "Associate"/under 40 member #23 or so. At the time the max for Associate memberships was 40. Last year during Covid we hit that max. We increased the max to 60. We filled that and we have over 30 people on that waitlist alone. I think we're on a waitlist for every category.


Can't say we're alone though, pretty much every club in the Twin Cities is full or close to. And yes initiation fees are going way up.
H.P.S.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2021, 09:07:16 PM »
Re: Venetian



Refundable Golf Membership $12,500 Initiation Fee
Non-Refundable Golf Membership $7,000 Initiation Fee


https://www.venetiangolfandriverclub.com/venetiangolfandriverclub.com/files/VEN%20Membership%202021%20LD.pdf


My buddy paid $1000 last year to join there.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2021, 03:54:03 AM »
Its hard to tell how sustainable this golf boom really is.   Normally, recessions lead to cut-backs in large discretionary purchases, but the opposite happened here.   I remember thinking there would be deals last year, but that wasn't the case.


Certainly, many people discovered how great golf is and they will stick with it.   But, golf had little competition for the past year or so and now it has to compete with more activities.   

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2021, 01:10:53 PM »
This was not a normal recession. For those that kept their jobs, either remotely or not, the amount of discretionary income actually went up. This was due to there being less venues to spend at including no travel, eating out and discretionary shopping trips.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2021, 03:23:19 PM »
Jim S. -

Not only have many people with good incomes being spending less thru the Covid slowdown, but the rich have gotten a lot richer.

Thru the end of August, the S&P 500 has averaged an annual gain of over 18% a year for the past 3 years. The Nasdaq 100 has returned over 29% per year for the past 3 years. Home prices are up. Mortgage interest rates are way down.

For people with capital to invest, it has been a very rewarding time. And those are the people who join golf clubs. ;)

DT   
 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 03:39:49 PM by David_Tepper »

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2021, 03:36:57 PM »
 8)  These costs sure make the TOPGOLF experience look very attractive to those with limited discretionary funds
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Gib_Papazian

Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2021, 05:14:43 PM »
Steve,


I've been to three Topgolf facilities - usually with a group of burnt crust, swing-from-the-heels, lunatic farmers and produce hustlers. You'd better hold onto your wallet good & tight, because that fat wad of quatloos will get skinnier than Bethenny Frankel in short order.


They are experts at the nickel & dime upsell - except it will be a stack of Franklins by the time those halter-top dollies are done shakin' their sugar at all the horny old goats.


As far as initiation fees, what looks to be insanely expensive, sticker shock madness will look bargain basement in five years. Inflation is coming with a vengeance and unless you've got a spot on a northbound elevator, now is the cheapest deal you're likely to get in terms of relative capital expenditures.


Until it is not.


It never fails to astonish me how membership at clubs, founded as an affordable, cooperative, common-sense alternative end up jacking up their initiation dues as a barrier of entry - who then spend the money like drunken sailors with rudderless tinkering to their golf course.


The only possible relief will be another outright, 2008 meltdown. The problem is that clubs leveraged to their snouts end up in the dreaded "death spiral" and often end up being forced to waive initiation fees and let in cargo-shorts riff raff - in exchange for a warm body paying their monthly dues.


Before you cough up that check for a shiny new club, best to take a close look behind the curtain at the economic stability and sustainability when the shit inevitably hits the fan. At that point, once the list to sell a membership gets longer than the line at the front entrance turnstiles, you're stuck like a pig.


     


 


     
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 05:38:05 PM by Gib Papazian »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2021, 05:30:30 PM »
Good post Gib
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2021, 09:56:44 PM »
Clubs should raise their standards for new members faster than they raise initiation fees when demand is high and lower their initiation fees quickly when demand is low.


FYI my definition of standards are 1) a true interest in being part of the club and 2) a history of regularly playing over 25 rounds a year when life permits.  If life has rarely permitted you to play over 25 rounds in a year than I would prefer you wait to apply for membership.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2021, 07:51:06 AM »
25k downstroke for a social membership near me. Why do I live here?
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2021, 10:06:03 AM »
 8)  Gib,  I thought Capt. Kirk took care of all that, but not sure who'd fight the good fight with dynamic crypto exchange rates at play today... its the lure of easy money, its got a very strong appeal...


Mike, That could probably work for a golf club, not sure when there are social memberships...


in 92 we got into the WCC for $10k, no waiting list... figured after playing 40-50 times a year (NW Ohio) I or we could alternatively get out 100 times for $100 a round in new SE Tx homebase given year-round play but having literally walk-on entree 5-10 min away for a handful of courses was sealed when Ms Sheila said, "you can live on the course or belong to it, choose one!"  Went to playing 130+ times a year and from a 15 to a 5 index... good times, not so sure one could do that today, but was a good bet, bright moments and hey, I also met Mario Andretti.. :D




« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 10:07:55 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2021, 07:25:55 PM »
a history of regularly playing over 25 rounds a year when life permits.  If life has rarely permitted you to play over 25 rounds in a year than I would prefer you wait to apply for membership.


I figure for many clubs the person who pays their dues and never plays is the best type of member.




Regarding deals..outside of the US are people forgetting about the likes of Brora, Carne and others that were really struggling at the start and offered some really good deals.  Brora was 5K, Carne was 3k...for life.

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Initiation Fees.... went crazy, who would have thought?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2021, 02:23:53 PM »
I can remember at the beginning of the pandemic that the National club that I am on a waiting list for will be begging me to join!!


Uhh wrong.... and quite the opposite.  Since my local club now has a waiting list with a high initiation fee a few members are trying to put lipstick on a pig and jam thru a clubhouse reno for several million $.


My dream has turned into a nightmare...

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