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GeoffreyC

The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« on: November 17, 2003, 11:44:52 AM »
The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5

Dan Kelly correctly pointed out to me that “tragedy” should be reserved for events like soldiers being blown up, crazy suicide bombers blowing up buildings with innocent civilians and drunk drivers running over someone’s child.  I apologize if my previous choice of words offended anyone. It is after all only a golf course.  What is being done up at Yale can, however, qualify as a travesty.

Hole #5 at Yale is our version of the “short” hole.  It’s a very good version that has been softened to the point where much of teeth of the hole has been removed. The hole was really of the “fortress” type of short hole, different from #6 at NGLA which defends itself with its wild green. This style of short hole is almost an island green surrounded by deep bunkers that made recovery difficult. The 5th at Yale is a 147 yard shot.  The best fortress type of short that I have seen is at Blind Brook.  That hole reminds me of “Tank” at the old course at Ballyliffin. Still, #5 at Yale is/was a formidable challenge.  The difficulty of #5 is increased due to the tricky swirling winds at this location on the course. Far behind the hole are a wall of trees with the 6th tee directly behind the green and the sixth fairway extending up to the right.  Behind the 5th tee is the 4th green and fairway extending back to the 2nd fairway.  Thus, you have wind moving through the fairways with the chute of the 5th at a perpendicular angle to those fairways and lined by trees.  This creates the tricky swirling winds.

A view of the old aerial of that part of the course shows what I am talking about.  In addition, you can see the island green created by Raynor on this short hole.



Here is an old photo of #5 to show you what it once was.  What an intimidating iron shot that was!  The slopes down to the bunker were steep.  No golf ball would come to rest on those slopes.  Note the size of the players on the green relative to the depth of the bunkers.  Count the steps down into that front bunker. The caption to this old photo and other writing (perhaps George Bahto will comment) state that the bunkers were some 11 feet deep.  There was at one time the typical horseshoe or thumbprint feature in this green. I believe Harry Meusel, the old long time superintendent, removed this too.


Roger Rulewich did admit to softening this hole.  In his own words he writes in reply to Brad Klein’s article in Golfweek “The style of flat sand areas and grass banks have been preserved. The grass slopes have not been softened - they were left undisturbed in most every case when the bunker repair was done. The steepness is not gone and depths have not been compromised. In several cases they were excavated to bedrock. They could hardly have been deeper! Only the floor of the front bunker on no. 5 was raised a foot to help it drain and keep it from becoming a water hazard after every heavy rain.

Mr. Rulewich claims that the slopes into the bunkers were not softened and the floor of the front bunker on #5 was raised only ”a foot”.

OK then.  Let’s take a look at #5 at Yale today after the work done to it.   ::)

Here is a view from the tee much the same as the old photo above. Note the absence of steps on the right.  We hardly need them anymore as you will see. It sure doesn’t look as intimidating to me.


Now Charles Banks claims that the original bunkers on #5 were some 11 feet deep.  If my math is correct then the bunker that Mr. Rulewich built should be some 10 feet deep or so. I for one would like some steps down into an 10 foot deep bunker but they aren’t present on hole 5 anymore.  I wonder why ???  The construction photos were consulted according to Mr. Rulewich.  What the heck happened?

Here is my good buddy Tony Pioppi standing by the new front bunker. For those of you who have not met Tony as yet- HE IS NOT 12 FEET TALL.  ;D That’s about how big he would have to be for that front bunker to be 10 feet deep. Also note those steep slopes down into the bunker that HELD UP TONY”S BALL! But Roger didn’t alter the slopes as he stated above. My guess is the floor of that bunker is at least 5 feet higher then it used to be.  :'( >:(

 

Now, Roger was correct in that area does not drain well.  My question is whether modern bunker construction techniques could maintain the depth and get adequate drainage?

Now let us look at the left bunker on #5.  Again I ask you if the slopes leading down into the sand are steep in the Raynor style?


Finally, nothing seemed to be touched behind this green.  Note how different this looks.


So, I ask you once again- Is this a travesty or what.  Is the reply of Mr. Rulewich to Golfweek accurate and truthful?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2003, 11:45:27 AM by Geoffrey Childs »

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2003, 11:57:16 AM »
I'll agree that what you've presented here in photos is grotesque but I heard something last week that might cheer you up.  A Construction company owner told me about a Drainage engineer/architect out of Canada that I should consult with about my drainage issues, he was reputed to be one of the best people in the field.  When I called him to arrange a possible site visit he told me he would stop by my course on his way back from Yale G.C. since I would be on his way back to Quebec.  Seems that Scott Ramsay is getting the folks at Yale to do some things.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2003, 12:04:22 PM »
Based on the old pic, the front bunker is NOT 11 feet below the front of the green, based on the height of the players 5-6 feet tall.  It looks more like 8-9 feet.  I definitely would believe that the BACK of the green is 11 feet above the bunker behind.

Also, based on the fact that you can still see the sand in the front bunker (front right) in the old pic, and just a little more in the recent pic, it appears as if the green itself is not as high as it once was, although the green shape itself looks very similar.

ForkaB

Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2003, 12:45:07 PM »
Sean

You are on the right track but not sceptical enough.  I would bet that those old pictures of Yale were made by that famous New Haven native PT Barnum, with midgets from his circus as extras.  Much as home builders today use teeny-weeny furniture to make their houses look bigger, might not have golden age archies used small people to make their courses look more grand?  I personally have serious doubts about that old photographs of Sitwell Park's 18th green..........

ForkaB

Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2003, 12:52:56 PM »
Actually, it was Scott's post I was commenting on.........  Sorry Scott.  Don't get too puffed up, Schmidt!

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2003, 12:55:14 PM »
A Construction company owner told me about a Drainage engineer/architect out of Canada that I should consult with about my drainage issues, he was reputed to be one of the best people in the field.  

Rdecker,

If it is the same firm, they did some work this Spring to the 7th hole at Yale that has been cronically wet for a number of years (maybe even day 1) and they did a great job.

Geoffrey,

Shivas (The Man Formerly Known as Dave) could be right about some of the numbers, but it still goes back to my same issue as with #4, the psychology of the hole is gone. I get scared just looking at that top picture of the old #5!! Today, that same fear is not there.

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2003, 01:09:41 PM »
Mr. Childs -

Tragedy is absolutely the correct word for this.

"Tragedy" refers to a genre of Greek drama in which the hero's tragic flaw causes a ruinous downfall.

In The Birth of Tragedy Nietzsche posits that true tragedy concerns the tension between the Appolonian (sun god - light, clarity, form) and the  Dionysian (wine god -drunkenness and ecstasy).

More to come on this, as I believe it pertains to the art form of golf course architecture.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

ForkaB

Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2003, 01:12:48 PM »
Machael

This could be good stuff.  Give us more!  I'm strongly trending towards the Dionysian ideal, myself.

GeoffreyC

Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2003, 01:20:56 PM »
R Decker-  As Mike Sweeney mentioned- the drainage on #7 is VASTLY improved. This outside company did a great job.  Now lets send them off to do #6 fairway and #10 fairway.

Dave- I'll let George Bahto address the question of the original bunker depth. He has a quote from Charles Banks. Does it look to you that it is only 1 foot shallower?  ::)  Look at how you can see the floor of the sand layer of the front bunker all the way to the left edge of the green in the new photo.  In the old photo, you can't see any sand until at least the right half of the green. There are 11 steps down into that bunker.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2003, 01:31:18 PM »
Geoff,
You ask the question whether or not modern bunker techniques could maintain depth while adequately draining those bunkers. I'm no expert but I don't think the soils there facilitate natural leaching and even the best draining, silt free sand is useless if the soil won't cooperate, ergo, the water must be moved out.
As I recall this(site of #5) is a fairly flat area. I think arming yourself with a transit, setting up in the beginnings of the 6th fwy. and having a look around would give you some answer to that question. Finding the point to where you can effectively move the water will give you an idea of the depth the bunkers could reach. From the limited number of times I've played there I think the stream to the left of #6 is the lowest point in the area but that is just conjecture on my part.


   
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2003, 01:43:10 PM »
Sean

You are on the right track but not sceptical enough.  I would bet that those old pictures of Yale were made by that famous New Haven native PT Barnum, with midgets from his circus as extras.  Much as home builders today use teeny-weeny furniture to make their houses look bigger, might not have golden age archies used small people to make their courses look more grand?  I personally have serious doubts about that old photographs of Sitwell Park's 18th green..........

Rich,

This trick has already been perpetrated by Gene, who posed his ten years old son in the blowout bunker left of the 4th green at Sand Hills to exaggerate its scale ::)

Regards,

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2003, 01:51:02 PM »
Rich,

I've been wrongly called Steve on a number of independent occasions (including the University bigwig who read my name incorrectly as Steve off of a piece of paper that I had written during my Master's Degree ceremony as I walked across the stage!), but never Sean.  That's SPDB.  Or Bond, James Bond.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2003, 02:04:12 PM »
Geoff Childs,

I thought that this hole would have been the easiest to restore, and was very disappointed when I played what was a half hearted or half assed pseudo attempt at restoration.

I love short holes, and this was clearly an opportunity lost.

GeoffreyC

Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2003, 02:17:05 PM »
Jim

You are correct.  The lowest point perhaps on the whole course is the stream just behind  and to extending to the right of the 5th green.

Could drainage be adequately directed to that stream?

If not then - could the green be raised? The intent of Raynor was clearly to creat an intimidating short iron shot to an island green almost surrounded by sand.  This sad work does not recreate that IMHO.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2003, 02:44:57 PM »
Geoff,
Just guessing but the lowest point on the course would appear to be the reservoir in front of #1. That would be one hell of a run!
Taking water to the stream is unanswerable until the elevations are known.

Doesn't the idea of raising the green raise the hackles on the back of your neck?  ;D  I think it would be better to raise the tee boxes to give the golfer a better view of the extent of the surrounding sand, in effect increasing the psychology that Mike Sweeney noted has been lessened for him.  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2003, 03:49:19 PM »
Pat's right (wait a second...)

This may be the easiest hole on the course to restore, if not #4. The bunker shapes haven't changed (with the minor exception that there is now three bunkers instead of two). The dimensions (barring depth) are nearly unchanged.

You know what though, if they promised every other hole would be faithfully restored but this one, I'd take that deal.

Fondly,
Scott

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2003, 05:38:18 PM »
Geoff Childs:

When we played the hole this summer, something just didn't seem right compared to my last visit to Yale in the mid 1990's.Your documentation confirms the disturbing feeling I had.

As for the using the word "tragedy", I think that goes back to my thread last summer following our visit. Hopefully everyone here understands Yale is a "tragedy" within the world of golf architecture only. Indeed, it is silly to suggest we were comparing the disfiguring of Yale's golf course to the loss of life.

Keep up the could work. I know some Yalie's are watching with interest.
Tim Weiman

GeoffreyC

Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2003, 06:09:08 PM »
Everone go out now and purchase Geoff Shackelford's book "The Golden Age of Golf Design" (shameless plug for a great book and a "must have" for anyone enjoying classic golf course architecture.

Turn to page 40 and note the caption to the photo.

"The "short" hole at Yale with 12-foot deep bunkers surrounding the entire green.

I will leave it to George to quote from Banks about the short hole at Yale.  Those with his great book "The Evangelist of Golf: The story of Charles Blair MacDonald" (another shameless plug) see page 237.

Tim- I hope a lot of Yalie's see this and I hope they write directly to the president of the university (Richard Levin)asking for an investigation.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2003, 06:10:58 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2003, 06:17:05 PM »
For those of you who have not met me Geoff is right, I am not 12 feet tall. Interestingly, however, I used to be 12 feet tall right around the time Yale opened its golf course. Coincidence?

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2003, 06:33:43 PM »
Tony didnt we have dinner one night in Hartford when you were nearly twelve feet tall after the third bottle of wine? ;D

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2003, 06:57:09 PM »
Tony,
How are you doing?

Geoff,
It is clear that the new bunkers are shallower than the old.
I took the early photo and enlarged it in a paint program then scaled it using the men on the green as a guide. If you do the same thing I think it will show that although deeper they were nowhere near 11'/12'(bunkers, not the men ;D ) at the time of the photo, more like 8' or 9' max.
Using a 10" rise per step doesn't get you near that 12' depth either.  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2003, 07:13:54 PM »
Geoff,
By the way, when I did the scale I considered the men to be 6' tall but they may be a bit shorter than that. However, they are deeper into the photo than is the front of the green so if I erred it was in favor of the bunker depth.

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2003, 07:25:28 PM »
OK - the depth of the bunkering on #5:

as written by Charles Banks that appeared in an article in a Yale publication ..... 1931

"The hole is original with Messrs. Macdonald (how's that for spelling! - oh baby!!) - sorry ...  

anyhow ..

"The hole is original with Messrs. Macdonald and Raynor and was first put up on the National Golf Links of America as hole number six. This is one of the four short holes on the course, i.e., each short hole is designed for a single shot to a green with a particular club. No. 5 is a mashie hole. The tees are slightly above ground level. The green is completely surrounded by sand, making it an island green elevated 12 feet above the level of the sand in the bunker. The contours of the green mark a horseshoe around the pin which is placed in the center of the green."

He was there at the time. .......   and don't call him “Steamshovel” - he was just efficient! hah
« Last Edit: November 17, 2003, 07:26:39 PM by George_Bahto »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2003, 08:08:57 PM »
 8)

There's a guy in the left bunker with his right shoulder facing the camera.. his head seems to be level with the green elevation.. is he in the bunker?

Is there any evidence that they took a foot or two of the green off the top?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Travesty of Yale- Hole #5
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2003, 11:35:40 PM »
Is it just me, or does the actual green surface itself seem to be MUCH smaller in the new versus old pictures (i.e., total square footage) as well?

That too seems to have taken away some of the "bite" in these two versions of the same hole.
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

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