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Jim_Michaels

The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« on: November 14, 2003, 03:56:48 PM »
Geoffrey Childs has inspired me. Also, seeing the magnificent Ocean Course has done so, too. When Medalist was first built, it was in many ways, especially as far as the green complexes, similar to TOC. Not quite as good, but not that far back, either.

Every single green complex has now been altered by Greg Norman without Dye's input. None of them have the qualities they used to have which are being exhibited on TV as we speak at TOC AND, ironically enough, at Tiburon, where the Shark Shootout is being played.

I will see if pictures are available, but going hole by hole will just make me weep.  

Here's the bottom line: Greens that formerly had multiple angles and means of approach now have one, the AIR.  

Also, what were formerly pot bunkers are now conventional.

Also, all of the fairway bunkers went from the inside of the elbows to the outside, so that STRATEGY is no longer present off the tee, just SURVIVAL. Ugh. The net effect of the alterations of the greens and fairways is to make it the ultimate TARGET course, where it almost felt linksy in shot selction 5-7 years ago. Why would anybody make that change?  At least CB and Raynor are at peace while their creation is altered almost beyond recognition.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2003, 03:58:37 PM by Jim_Michaels »
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Jupiteretired

Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2003, 04:04:52 PM »
As a resident of the area, I have seen the course go through all of its changes. Jim, there are 4 terrible holes on this course now where there were used to be very good ones. I don't recall seeing a designer ever do something like that.

I am referring to 5, 11, 17 and 18. Do you concur?
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Jim_Michaels

Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2003, 04:26:40 PM »
I have to agree. 5 was a very interesting short hole. It shared a fairway with the 6th, a la the Sandbelt courses and had a very interesting TOC type green. Now there is a large bunker in what used to be the landing area, a tree (!) at the dogleg and the green can only be held with a lob wedge. 11 was also a very good short par 4 that now has a green that some players can't hold with a putter, the landing area is so small! 17 and 18 used to be a controversial par 5 and a very strong par 4. They are now a bad par 4 and a horrific par 5.
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ChipRoyce

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Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2003, 05:07:36 PM »
what was the impetus for Greg to make all these changes?
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2003, 05:19:28 PM »
Jim Michaels,

I don't think anyone has trouble with a little tinkering or fine tuning.

But, I think one has to question the constant changes, and the reasons behind them.

# 18 looks so incredibly out of context that I would have believed my host if he told me that Fazio designed it.

I applaud Norman's efforts to improve the golf course, but I also have to question his understanding of architectural principles, or his ultiimate goals.

It's a terrific club, but when will the tinkering cease, when will he finally get it right ??
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Matt Kardash

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Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2003, 06:08:57 PM »
Why does Dye have no imput on the changes? Does Dye know about them? Does he even care?
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Joel_Stewart

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Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2003, 07:17:37 PM »
Quote from: matt kardash on November 14, 2003, 06:08:57 PM
Why does Dye have no imput on the changes? Does Dye know about them? Does he even care?
Probably not.  I play there ususally once or twice a year and a member I know says that Greg is trying to get rid of every Dye trademark.  

I never played 17 as a par 5 but have to believe it is a better hole than it is now.  The bunker is imposing but the green sitting up on that hill looks completely unnatural.  

18 would be a great par 4.

After watching the Shell match between Norman and Price and seeing the green on 16 has been moved, I have no idea what prompted Norman to do that?

So many changes.  The 2nd hole which may the toughest on the course, moving the bunker from the inside (right side) to the outside left is crazy.  Eliminating the bunker on the right of #1 was also crazy.

One of my favorite stories is when I played though a group on #2, they waved me up when I was on the tee and they were looking for a ball on the right side of the fairway.  So I hit my ball into the fairway bunker on the right and when I get to the trap, see its Ray and Robert Floyd and Hank Kuene.  Now I have to hit the ball out of the trap, over the water about 200 yards.  Needless to say I'm a little nervous, but some how punch the ball onto the green and make par. Whew!
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2003, 07:30:13 PM »
Joel Stewart,

The problem that many had with # 2 was that a well hit drive, either straight or with a little draw would run through the fairway and into the gunk.  Perhaps the new bunker is designed to catch drives before they're in the gunk or lost ??

Just a guess.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2003, 09:35:32 PM »
I remember reading that Norman said he redid the course to "soften" it for the members. If I remember correctly, this course was one of Norman's earliest, if not his first, effort at course design. He followed Nicklaus' early career when Jack co-designed with Pete Dye at Harbour Town and Muirhead at Muirfield.
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Jim_Michaels

Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2003, 09:53:29 AM »
Wow. I think Medalist has a Champions, TX-like membership. In other words, a very high level of playing ability. I am sure those guys didn't need anything softened for them. And, I can tell you, the course is not easier now. Is it easier to be forced to fly the ball onto greens that won't hold, than to run the ball into a green that might? Is that softening a course?

Anybody who interprets what Norman did here as having a rational purpose is missing the point. These changes don't make any sense at all. None.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2003, 10:25:10 AM »
Jim Michaels,

Last year, or perhaps the year before, PINE TREE had a players membership, with 58 golfers with 4 handicaps or less,
20 golfers at 2 or less and 10 golfers at 0 or less, including a few + 3's, +4's, and a +5.
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Jim_Michaels

Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2003, 01:08:41 PM »
Patrick,

I once heard somebody say that half the Medalist members were single digit handicaps.
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Joel_Stewart

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Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2003, 06:35:38 PM »
Pat:
Does that include half the LPGA tour that call Pine Tree home?

Jim: Medalist has/had alot of tour players and alot of good players from the Northeast that winter in Florida.  It's my understanding that a number of them have left to go next door to Macarthur which is the type of club they originally signed up for.  
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2003, 06:38:09 PM »
Joel,
 
No, those were just the Men's handicaps.
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John_Cullum

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Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2003, 11:19:25 AM »
So is the upshot of all this that Medalist is no longer worth playing? Suppose I have 4 days in Stuart FL. I can play PGA Village X3, Eagle Marsh at Jensen Beach, Indian Hills in Ft. Pierce, Palm Beach Muni, and Medalist, which one do I skip? I would assume that the green fee at Medalist is at least three times any of the others.
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rgkeller

Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2003, 11:41:22 AM »
Norman just sold a piece of property adjacent to Medalist to a builder for $25 million. One suspects that Medalist has become less a statement for Norman and more of a real estate venture. Real estate ventures seldom have great or even good golf courses.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2003, 02:10:21 PM »
Jim Michaels,

I believe that is inaccurate.
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Jim_Michaels

Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2003, 03:57:11 PM »
Patrick, I don't really care whether my statement is exactly correct or not. The bottom line is there are a lot of good players there. What the thread is about is the decline in the architecure of Medalist over the last three or four years. Even if nobody there could play at all, that would still be a very sad thing.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2003, 04:22:40 PM »
Jim Michaels,

I think that there would be an acceptance of fine tuning over the years, but when radical changes are made, repetitively, maybe it's an indication that there's a bigger problem.
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John_Cullum

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Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2003, 05:50:27 PM »
Okay, I'll try this again.

Lets say I have 4 days in Stuart FL to play 18 each day.
I can play Medalist, which I guess costs around $125 plus a caddy or cart. I can play any 3 at PGA Village, about $48 w/ cart. I can Play Eagle Marsh, a"Tommy" Fazio design which I think is pretty good for Florida, good greens, very challenging, about $45 w/ cart. I can play Indian Hills in Ft. Pierce, a Herbert Strong design from around 1938, some really neat quirky holes, rough condition but fun to play, about $20 w/ cart. Assume I cant get on Jupiter Hills or Macarthur. Is Medalist the one to skip?
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Joel_Stewart

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Re:The Tragedy of Medalist GC -NLE
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2003, 11:50:44 PM »
Sarge:
Depends on your handicap and what you like but if it was me, I would skip PGA Village and possibly Eagle Marsh which I have never heard of so can't really comment on.  

Medalist is still a great facility even if the course has been radically changed.  The head of the locker room (Emile) and his staff are about the best in Florida, you probably will be one of only a few on the course so you'll move fast and have a good time.  
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