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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
How We Get Hired
« on: January 07, 2021, 07:39:10 PM »
On another thread, Ira asked a question that I thought deserved its own thread.  Hopefully the other architects on the board will chime in as well.  Here was the question:

Before Pac Dunes, you probably did not have much of a brand name. The same is true for C&C before Sand Hills. And I am sure the pattern holds back through at least Colt. Unlike literature, music, art, or even sports, golf does not seem to have middle men whose job it is to discover, or at least promote, potential stars. So how does a Keiser take a bit of a leap of faith on you, Youngscap on C&C, Hollins on MacKenzie, etc? I am sure that each has its own backstory but are there any common elements?



From the sound of it, you'd think social media was the key today, and if so I'm probably headed for the junk heap soon.  ;)

When I was still writing things for GOLF Magazine in the 1980's and 1990's, I got to meet a fair number of prominent developers -- everyone from Lyle Anderson to Mark Parsinen to the Trivial Pursuit guys who developed Devil's Pulpit.  Plus I'd gotten to know a few of Mr. Dye's clients as well.  I always made a point of asking them how they decided whom to hire as a designer, and in nearly every case they either already knew their man, or a close friend recommended him.  Devil's Pulpit was the most interesting; Mike Hurdzan was a complete unknown at that time and had never done a big-budget project, but their golf pro had worked with him somewhere else and liked him, they talked to Mike, and hired him.  They didn't even go and play one of his courses, and they never considered anyone else!

So, in hindsight, it was extremely lucky that all my travels as a college student and just after that had allowed me to meet so many people around the world, even though I had no idea what "networking" was.  My first five design jobs were all based on recommendations from someone I'd met when I was in college! 


Most of the golf courses we talk about here are developed by individuals, and each of them will have his own background on why he wants to build a course and what he knows about the business.  Sometimes the impetus comes from playing another of your courses; Julian Robertson decided to hire me the day he played Pacific Dunes, so David Kidd missed out by two days on that one.  But a lot of my early clients picked me without ever going to see one of my courses [sometimes because they were under snow when the decision was being made].  I was shocked by the lack of due diligence, but after seeing a few projects where they interviewed all the usual suspects, I think the due diligence is mostly a smokescreen to hide the fact that they had already made up their minds.


I thought it was well known, but maybe not, that brand names were not what Mr. Keiser was after for Bandon.  He believed that the most important thing was to find a great piece of land, partly on the basis of something I had written in GOLF Magazine a few years prior.  He considered designing Bandon Dunes by a GOLF DIGEST contest, telling Ron Whitten that he didn't want to hire a professional architect ever again after building The Dunes Club, and seeing how little the architect was there.  He originally hired the Gleneagles Golf Group to design Bandon Dunes, including David's dad and the director of golf there, but Mike mostly liked that David was young and energetic and wanted to do something great, and also because all of that put him in a position of needing to listen to his client.

I met Mike in 1995 via our mutual friend Bill Shean, and it was Bill and Dick Youngscap from Sand Hills who were the "middle men" in my getting to design Pacific Dunes.  They were two of the people Mike looked up to the most, Bill for his golf background and Dick for the development of Sand Hills.  I think Steve Goodwin is right that Mike didn't want to copy Dick by hiring Coore & Crenshaw, which was lucky for me because then Dick was free to recommend me as the other designer he liked.  [I'd known Dick since he built Firethorn with the Dyes in the 1980's.]

It's funny how things change, though.  Back then Mr. Keiser wanted to hire someone new and different; now he tends to stick with the people he's comfortable with.  It's not just that comfort level, though; if he went out on a limb and it didn't work out, everyone would think he'd lost the Midas touch.  ;)


To this day, when someone calls about a potential project, the first question I ask is why they called me, and I will be way more interested in the job if it was because they know someone I know, or if they have played some of my courses and liked them.  If they're just interviewing all of the top guys, I figure they don't really want me.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2021, 08:14:29 PM »
You need someone to take you under their wing.  You also need to get a little lucky that someone will take a chance on you.  And then you need to deliver something that proves you were worth taking a chance on and makes your client happy because at the end of the day, word of mouth is how you get new projects.  Fancy websites don't do it in this business.  For me it helped to have guys like Forrest Richardson and Gil Hanse as backers.  I won't write out my whole story but the book on Bunkers, Pits & Other Hazards I wrote with Forrest back in the 2003-2006 timeframe helped me a lot as well.  These days it must be brutal to break into this business.  The other thing I will say that is important in any successful business, you have to find and know your niche. 

Peter Pallotta

Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2021, 08:22:21 PM »
TD -
I think you came onto the scene at a time when personal connections were actually *personal*, the relationships based on people meeting people, face to face.
I'm not on any social media, but if I were I'd have a hard time nowadays distinguishing a friend from, say, a complete stranger. Someone shares painful news on Facebook and they get 35 broken-heart emojis -- and I'm thinking "Is no one gonna at least pick up the phone and make a call -- you know, say hello and check in?" 
I'm a Luddite, granted: but I wonder how personal connections between the next generation of clients and architects will be developed, and what form they will take and how strong they'll prove to be in a social media environment where 'relationships' can be characterized by little more than a 'like' button -- and where a young architect's first course can be viewed hole by hole, inch by inch, and get analyzed, discussed, promoted, praised or criticized by golfers/potential clients all over the world, 24 hrs a day, 52 weeks a year.




« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 09:39:13 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2021, 09:44:37 PM »
Funny that this subject comes up now.
I was having breakfast with another architect this week on his way to an interview.  I think about 10 guys were being interviewed. ( I did that twice and said no more.)  One can spend so much money preparing for presentations where it all comes down to personality and how it fits that particular board or committee.  And you go back once or twice and your stomach stays in knots wondering if you did what you needed to do to convince.  IMHO if a club can't start with one,two or maybe three then perhaps nothing needs to be done anyway.   -OT ( and when clubs start asking you to recommend younger archies who will be around for the next 25 years then you really feel old and washed up). Seems clubs have begun to appreciate consulting architects on board for a while instead of "5 year master plans"

Being hired by a club is often a personality thing and not a design thing.  And then you have the "player" thing to overcome.  Good am players who are good architects have a distinct advantage when boards include good players. 

I much much prefer to work for a developer or a hotel etc where they just give you the basics and leave you alone.  That type of work for me has been word of mouth and has been my focus.  The only time this type of customer is tough is when the young sales VP is infatuated with a tour player or signature and wants to tell his buddies he has lunch with Jack or Fred etc....don't waste your time or money fighting this type dude...you will lose.
When it comes to munis, if you don't have the job wrapped up before the interview and bid process tehn don't waste time or money.  Most of the time they have it decided and one of the guys in the room knows it.  That's good salesmanship.

And then my theory has always been that every other person in golf knows where to go to select their product or service except the golf architect.  He never knows where the next client can come from yet once he has that client in hand and announces the project: the equipment salesman, irrigation salesman, supt applicants, golf pro applicants, club and ball salesman, food sales, all know where to go...
I think time has shown that when the signatures throw the assistants out the doors, if they were never taught to sell or had not been working the bosses clients then they were in the cold.  No one cared.  Maybe they get some of the boss's rework but usually that's about it.  Look at the ASGCA project list of guys who worked for other companies and see how many actually have any of their own courses on the ground.  Not many. 

So I think for most there are two ways you get hired:  good salesmanship or family tree...talent is third..
PS. I did just read on another thread that even if you don't have any 18 hole designs on the ground, if you can get a couple of ASGCA presidents and another architect or two to say you belong in the ASGCA that might help.  But I sort of see that like I would Bluto's fraternity, Delta Tau Chi, telling Dean Wormer who should graduate from Faber College.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2021, 10:10:09 PM »

From the sound of it, you'd think social media was the key today, and if so I'm probably headed for the junk heap soon.



30,000 posts on golfclubatlas can't have hurt.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2021, 03:38:22 AM »
It is hard to fake it as an artist; you either do good work and people like it and talk about it or you don’t.  GCA is the same. Good work leads to good references which leads to more work and hopefully more good references. 


One of my earliest projects was a course called Ft. Monmouth in NJ.  Long story short, but I still remember many months after I was hired I asked the GM who selected me why I got chosen for the project over at least a dozen other very experienced architects that interviewed and wanted the job.  He said, “You knew so much more about Tillinghast then any one else we talked to plus you really seemed to care.”  My words not his.  At the end of the day, all the talk doesn’t matter if you don’t deliver.  Just like an artist who says he is an artist but can’t paint.  If your paintings suck, you lose your references pretty fast. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2021, 09:18:43 AM »

From the sound of it, you'd think social media was the key today, and if so I'm probably headed for the junk heap soon.



30,000 posts on golfclubatlas can't have hurt.


I just looked back through all of the new projects I've done in the last twenty years, just to make sure, and the only one where GOLF CLUB ATLAS could have had anything to do with hiring me was Dismal River . . . I don't really know why Chris Johnston decided he would call me, and maybe this site had something to do with it.  For every other project, I know who recommended me for the job and why.


GCA might have something to do with getting calls about restoration work, but I don't really care about that anyway.  I can promise you it doesn't have much to do with who gets the calls about working on top 100 courses; they want the guys who work on the other top 100 courses.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2021, 09:49:04 AM »
TD -
I think you came onto the scene at a time when personal connections were actually *personal*, the relationships based on people meeting people, face to face.
I'm not on any social media, but if I were I'd have a hard time nowadays distinguishing a friend from, say, a complete stranger. Someone shares painful news on Facebook and they get 35 broken-heart emojis -- and I'm thinking "Is no one gonna at least pick up the phone and make a call -- you know, say hello and check in?" 
I'm a Luddite, granted: but I wonder how personal connections between the next generation of clients and architects will be developed, and what form they will take and how strong they'll prove to be in a social media environment where 'relationships' can be characterized by little more than a 'like' button -- and where a young architect's first course can be viewed hole by hole, inch by inch, and get analyzed, discussed, promoted, praised or criticized by golfers/potential clients all over the world, 24 hrs a day, 52 weeks a year.


Peter:


Well, maybe.  Magazine rankings were partly the reason for the ascendancy of Tom Fazio, and before that, certainly television has played a huge role in the careers of many famous pro golfer/designers, not to mention RTJ and Pete Dye.  If Twitter is the new television, then it's possible careers will be made in that way.  [If it doesn't cause the destruction of civilization first.]


But it still requires individuals to do the hiring, so either you've got to be good at salesmanship, as Mike says, and/or you've got to have some sort of personal connection to the client.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2021, 09:53:04 AM »

From the sound of it, you'd think social media was the key today, and if so I'm probably headed for the junk heap soon.



30,000 posts on golfclubatlas can't have hurt.


I just looked back through all of the new projects I've done in the last twenty years, just to make sure, and the only one where GOLF CLUB ATLAS could have had anything to do with hiring me was Dismal River . . . I don't really know why Chris Johnston decided he would call me, and maybe this site had something to do with it.  For every other project, I know who recommended me for the job and why.


Maybe 2?   ;D

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2021, 10:21:38 AM »
I reckon GCA has probably harmed my chances if anything: Sometimes I say too much! Certainly, of the few jobs I’ve had, zero have come through social media or any internet website.


I had done some freelance work for others but got my lucky break because I wrote for golf magazines. That came about by walking the land for the new nine holes at Carne with Eamon Mangan at a time when their connection with Jim Engh had ceased. If others had realised that, I’m sure I wouldn’t have been the only one knocking at the door although I saw eye to eye with the client so I was a good fit.


One or two other projects came about because I approached the club to show them that there was an opportunity.


I’ve only taken place in one design competition which I won from a pool of three. That design didn’t make it to construction, yet anyway.


All other work has come through word of mouth / recommendation.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2021, 11:25:07 AM »

I just looked back through all of the new projects I've done in the last twenty years, just to make sure, and the only one where GOLF CLUB ATLAS could have had anything to do with hiring me was Dismal River . . . I don't really know why Chris Johnston decided he would call me, and maybe this site had something to do with it.  For every other project, I know who recommended me for the job and why.


Maybe 2?   ;D


Oh, yeah . . . but that started as a renovation, and just wound up being a bigger one than I expected.  Had I known where it was going, my fees would have been much higher!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2021, 11:52:06 AM »
Tom,

I'm not surprised to hear this, as it matches very closely to the various jobs I've had in my own career.  I've only been hired by two places where I didn't know anyone who worked there going in. To this day, I'm still deeply indebted to a friend who went to bat for me when I got my first "real" job out of college, of which I was certainly under-qualified for and the interview process went bad to say the least.

P.S. Which course do you considers as your bigger break? High Point being the 1st, or Pac Dunes?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2021, 11:59:06 AM »

P.S. Which course do you considers as your bigger break? High Point being the 1st, or Pac Dunes?


Well, which one are other designers more jealous of?   ;)


If not High Pointe, I'm pretty confident I would have gotten a chance to design a course on my own eventually, if I'd been able to eke out a living for long enough via writing and photography.  If my goal had been to "be a golf course architect," that would be the big break.  But my goal was always to "work on great courses," and Pacific Dunes was definitely the gateway to that.  Again, it might have happened somewhere else eventually, but the success of Pacific Dunes was the key to getting several of those jobs that followed.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2021, 12:24:21 PM »
Tom,

All of that certainly makes sense in hindsight.  I'm guessing once your career is all done and said, you won't have many professional regrets.

Slightly switching gears, I'm curious about your feelings on turning down potential work, and how you perceived it would impact you?  I've only been in that position once myself, where I turned down a good job offer, but I knew I wasn't the right fit for the day to day job responsibilities. Pissed off both my recruiter and the company that wanted to hire me, but now several years later,  I stand by that decision. Do you feel like turning down potential work has had much downside, other than the obvious loss of potential revenue? 

Peter Pallotta

Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2021, 12:49:58 PM »
edit - sorry wrong thread

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2021, 01:00:28 PM »
Without asking for specific examples, I imagine that there are some clients that architects etc have been glad didn’t give them the job or knowing in advance a potential clients reputation an architect etc priced the job and fee along the lines of “well I don’t really want to work for you but if you’re that insistent and given your reputation as a client I’m gonna charge you ..... extra”. And I guess some clients are better than others at paying the bills on time even more so when combined with the complexities of overseas work.[/size]Atb[/color]

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2021, 01:58:36 PM »
I love Peter P's contributions, but a guy who says I'm not on social media but this is how it works is like my brother saying I'm not married nor a parent, but here's some advice on parenting and marriage. Always broke my huevos that priests were giving marital advice in Pre-Cana conferences.


Personal relationships are still personal. I don't care about Zoom or Covid or social media. If you want to convince someone that you are the person for the job, you sit down and show off. Anyone looking to bypass that formula is not worth your time.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2021, 02:02:35 PM »
I love Peter P's contributions, but a guy who says I'm not on social media but this is how it works is like my brother saying I'm not married nor a parent, but here's some advice on parenting and marriage. Always broke my huevos that priests were giving marital advice in Pre-Cana conferences.





I'd love to know why you feel this way?

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2021, 02:02:57 PM »
I love Peter P's contributions, but a guy who says I'm not on social media but this is how it works is like my brother saying I'm not married nor a parent, but here's some advice on parenting and marriage. Always broke my huevos that priests were giving marital advice in Pre-Cana conferences.


Personal relationships are still personal. I don't care about Zoom or Covid or social media. If you want to convince someone that you are the person for the job, you sit down and show off. Anyone looking to bypass that formula is not worth your time.


RoMo-Your certainly old enough to realize that who you know is the way of the world. No knock just a fact.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2021, 02:27:23 PM »
Funny that this subject comes up now.
I was having breakfast with another architect this week on his way to an interview.  I think about 10 guys were being interviewed. ( I did that twice and said no more.)  One can spend so much money preparing for presentations where it all comes down to personality and how it fits that particular board or committee.  And you go back once or twice and your stomach stays in knots wondering if you did what you needed to do to convince.  IMHO if a club can't start with one,two or maybe three then perhaps nothing needs to be done anyway.   -OT ( and when clubs start asking you to recommend younger archies who will be around for the next 25 years then you really feel old and washed up). Seems clubs have begun to appreciate consulting architects on board for a while instead of "5 year master plans"

Being hired by a club is often a personality thing and not a design thing.  And then you have the "player" thing to overcome.  Good am players who are good architects have a distinct advantage when boards include good players. 

I much much prefer to work for a developer or a hotel etc where they just give you the basics and leave you alone.  That type of work for me has been word of mouth and has been my focus.  The only time this type of customer is tough is when the young sales VP is infatuated with a tour player or signature and wants to tell his buddies he has lunch with Jack or Fred etc....don't waste your time or money fighting this type dude...you will lose.
When it comes to munis, if you don't have the job wrapped up before the interview and bid process tehn don't waste time or money.  Most of the time they have it decided and one of the guys in the room knows it.  That's good salesmanship.

And then my theory has always been that every other person in golf knows where to go to select their product or service except the golf architect.  He never knows where the next client can come from yet once he has that client in hand and announces the project: the equipment salesman, irrigation salesman, supt applicants, golf pro applicants, club and ball salesman, food sales, all know where to go...
I think time has shown that when the signatures throw the assistants out the doors, if they were never taught to sell or had not been working the bosses clients then they were in the cold.  No one cared.  Maybe they get some of the boss's rework but usually that's about it.  Look at the ASGCA project list of guys who worked for other companies and see how many actually have any of their own courses on the ground.  Not many. 

So I think for most there are two ways you get hired:  good salesmanship or family tree...talent is third..
PS. I did just read on another thread that even if you don't have any 18 hole designs on the ground, if you can get a couple of ASGCA presidents and another architect or two to say you belong in the ASGCA that might help.  But I sort of see that like I would Bluto's fraternity, Delta Tau Chi, telling Dean Wormer who should graduate from Faber College.


Mike,


Really great insight, and although I don't work in the golf business, it mimics a lot of the experiences I've encountered at a previous job. I've never been in sales, but due to my role, I was often asked to go to pitches/new business meetings, and there were a few things I learned along the way, which I think would serve any person well in the GCA world:


- If you don't have the inside track, someone else does. If you don't, how can you get there?
- Probably less likely in this world, but often we had requests for proposals come in, but they wouldn't come to meet face-to-face ahead of the pitch. A red flag. Often it's the pre-pitch meeting that tells you the most. Qualifying the potential beforehand will increase success rate.
- On the above, nailing down a tight brief beforehand is critical when we pitched. Often clients didn't want to give out budgets, and we'd get the same line 'we don't want to limit your ideas. If it's the right idea, we'll find the money'. That's rubbish. There is always a budget expectation, even if it's loose. If not, then the project isn't real IMHO.
- With the brief, what is their idea of success. We've seen above that referrals mean everything. What's going to get this person to be your next advocate?
- 60% of what clients buy are the people standing in front of them (i've seen this stat thrown about, but don't have the source, so take it for what it's worth)
- Agree with Mike that if the shortlist is longer than 3 or 4, then it's probably a waste of time...or it's a big project/brand that know they can shortlist 10 because people will jump through hoops to work for them. If Keiser put a project out for bid, I imagine he could shortlist 50, and people would still try.


That's just a few thoughts off the top of my head.


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How We Get Hired
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2021, 02:33:17 PM »
I love Peter P's contributions, but a guy who says I'm not on social media but this is how it works is like my brother saying I'm not married nor a parent, but here's some advice on parenting and marriage. Always broke my huevos that priests were giving marital advice in Pre-Cana conferences.


Personal relationships are still personal. I don't care about Zoom or Covid or social media. If you want to convince someone that you are the person for the job, you sit down and show off. Anyone looking to bypass that formula is not worth your time.


RoMo-Your certainly old enough to realize that who you know is the way of the world. No knock just a fact.


RoMo is a school teacher who believes you have to have first hand experience on a subject to advise how to excel at it.

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