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Mark_Fine

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Never built projects :(
« on: January 06, 2021, 09:30:17 AM »
Every architect has them - courses that they designed and hoped would be built but things didn’t work out.  Years ago, Wayne Morrison and I tried unsuccessfully to get a never built Flynn design constructed called Opa Locka.  It was one of his best designs that for some reason never got built :(


I have done several new 18 hole designs and one 9 hole plan that weren’t built either.  One was long ago that both Gil Hanse as well as Tom Doak walked the property with me.  The land owner changed their mind about selling and the project never happened.  I still somewhere have the original design/routing I did for the gentlemen who wanted to build the course for the property and I know Gil really liked it.  Gil and Tom could both have done better which is why we wanted them to come see what they thought.  They were both just getting started at that time (this was over 20 years ago).  Gil and I also went to see a property in the Poconos that a dentist had lined up to do an 18 hole course.  I had sketched out a routing but he never was able to secure the funds to build the golf course.  There was also a project early on called Woodstone (some here might know it).  Geoff Shackelford actually flew in to work with me on the design but we both got frustrated with the owner and walked away from the project.  The course still ended up getting built with some of our ideas but we weren’t comfortable putting our name on what the owner wanted to do so we backed out.  It was his money and his course and he wanted to do what he wanted which he was entitled to do.  So be it.  I also worked on an existing daily fee course called Indian Creek.  I did a plan for the course and we made a lot of changes to improve it (it is now part housing development and I think only nine holes remain).  The Indian Creek owner wanted to build a new course to replace this one and I did two 18 hole designs on two new pieces of property but on both project's permits got delayed and/or a deal couldn’t be negotiated for the property that made financial sense.  The owner has since sadly passed away and never got to build his dream golf course.  I also did a rerouting of Southmoore Golf Course, another daily fee course.  They wanted to build a new practice area, etc and it required building three new holes and altering the current routing.  I did a design that they loved but once again they couldn’t secure the additional land they needed for the changes.  I also did a design for a nine hole par three tribute course which was comprised of nine of William Flynn's greatest par threes.  There is still an outside chance this one could happen but I am not holding my breath.  These are just a few examples and frustrations that take place with never built projects.  I am sure others have the same experiences.   

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2021, 10:00:08 AM »
 8)


30 years ago I found a great piece of ground in Dennis Township NJ an old primordial forest with beautiful trees and some spectacular vistas toward the Great Cedar Swamp. Deal never got done as the owners sold the land to the Wildlife Refuge that was being pieced together. They did take my rudimentary plans for golf and ancillary housing to the buyers to up the price. Would have been a cool place .


It did however spur my interest in doing something for real

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2021, 10:07:31 AM »
Archie,
Sounds like it would have been a good one.  You ended up doing an awesome job with Twisted Dune (I still remember our round together). This is tough business as you know (much much tougher now especially to do a new course).  Lots of ups and downs but it is fun and rewarding. 

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2021, 10:12:36 AM »
Scott Witter had a project in Cortland, NY, adjacent to a ski slope. Never put shovels in the ground. He did some nice work in Buffalo (Arrowhead, Deerwood Third Nine, Ironwood) but got out of the business when the 2008 financial strain hit.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2021, 10:14:50 AM »
Mark,


You are right, and every architect has those.  I know we discussed this in some thread, and I postulated that I might have built about 1 in 3 to 7 projects that I looked at, and had been selected for, not just lost in a fair competition.  Tom claimed to have almost 100% follow through on projects he seriously looked at, but that is rare for most of us.  For a young, up and coming architect, the ratio might be as low as 1 in 10 projects, only lowering after they establish themselves a bit.


Some of those 5 to 7 do come to fruition, often years later, due to permitting, financing, etc. issues, sometimes with the new money suggesting a different (usually big name) gca.  Others lag a decade, still use the original gca, but give no consideration to doubling the original cost estime/budget, and the project is sorely underfunded as a result. :(


And, I would say, gca's like you and me probably need an unexpected "Christmas Gift" like a new project, or unexpected return of a project we had long since written off for dead, to have a good financial year.  And, BTW,  I did get one of those very unexpected phone calls just yesterday that a project I worked on 7 years ago just to permits and will be moving ahead, so happy new year to me!


I know guys like Ron Whitten and similar, who tried to get in the biz as consultants, were pretty dismayed at just how hard it is,  and how much rejection was really involved in becoming a gca.  If I have time later, I may try to come up with my depressing "never got built" list to, you know, tone down the New Year's joy/optimism, LOL.  At least, near the end of my career, despite the objections and problems, I can see the finish line, and still have enough money banked to retire comfortably, so it seems unfair to complain too much.  While I was never sure in 1977 that I could finish my career as a gca, I did.  I do feel sorry for the current crop of young gca's who probably won't get a chance to build that many new 18 hole courses.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2021, 12:48:52 PM »
Ronald,
You may or may not know that Scott Witter and I worked on a lot of projects together.  For example we did a plan as well as a complete renovation of Champaign CC in IL, Scott worked with me on the restoration/renovation of Copake CC which we implemented, he traveled to Bermuda on one of my many trips to work on changes to Tucker’s Point Club, he worked with me on a plan for Oyster Harbors, he did drawings for me for hole modifications we built at Brookside CC, Bucknell GC, Hanover CC, we did a plan, made course alterations as well as prepared a complete re-routing plan for Chestnut Ridge Golf Resort (both the Tom’s Run course and Chestnut Ridge which they still have but not sure where it stands), just to name a few (all after 2008). He is out of the business now but I just talked to him the other day to see if he might have time for another project.  Great guy and good friend. 


Jeff,
Yes it is a challenging and very competitive business (maybe that is why we enjoy it) but there are more ups than downs.  It can be cutthroat as well.  Some of my best Master Plans never got implemented for one reason or another, Arcola CC comes to mind, but when they do it is very rewarding.  We have one project under major construction now that is based on a Master Plan that I did in 2005!!  Long story but we have been chipping away at the plan over the years, did some more substantial bunker work the last few years which they loved and now we are doing the entire balance of the holes.  The club got into a good situation financially and are very excited to see all the improvements.  The work has helped them add 50-60 new members so I am told. 


Forrest and I did a really cool plan for Colonial CC outside Boston years ago that never got implemented.  And Robert McNeil and I did a Master Plan for Pocono Manor that would have been awesome.  We were going to completely redesign the West course and renovate the Flynn/Ross East Course (the Flynn nine is outstanding and the Ross nine is very suspect whether it is even Ross) but it would have been great.  There was an ownership change and while I did make some alterations on the East before I joined up with Robert, we never got to do what we wanted with the entire new site design.  There was a grand vision for the property that just never happened. 

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2021, 12:59:09 PM »
Here's a thread listing a ton of Golden Age "Never Builts" - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67987.0.html
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2021, 01:14:23 PM »
Sven,
Thanks for posting. I missed that one so sorry for putting another one out there.  It is gonna happen and hopefully those who are interested who missed the other one will see it now.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2021, 01:24:17 PM »

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2021, 01:35:28 PM »
Mark,


This is a fun thread...although too bad good ideas often don't come to fruition in this business!


It would've been fun to see what you could've done with Colonial...I live about 10 miles away in Marblehead and only played it once before it closed in the early 2000s.  My dad grew up here too, and he always said that Colonial was the local public my grandfather took him to for a treat as a young teen learning to play. 


Now, most of the property is an outdoor mall called MarketStreet with high-end stores and restaurants, although they have kept 6 or 7 holes from the old course (combined with a few new holes) at the NW corner for the condo development behind the mall.  I think the nine is public, but I haven't played it.


The tough 425y hole along 128 has never been redeveloped, and I believe there are paved/lighted walking paths through the underbrush on that land now.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2021, 02:06:58 PM »
The project you mention at the start wouldn't even make my top 20!


I did a whole thread on this a few years ago when someone asked.  Unfortunately, I think the photos that someone was kind enough to host were on a defunct web site so they don't show up anymore, but here's the thread:


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47017.msg1046167.html#msg1046167


I would have a few more to add now, but perhaps one or two of them will be a golf course yet someday.  If the ground is good enough, there's always hope.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2021, 02:50:18 PM »
There’s a NZ project detailed towards the back of “Getting to 18” that seems pretty cool. One in the SW of Ireland too.
Atb
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 04:47:35 PM by Thomas Dai »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2021, 02:56:56 PM »
To get to the beginning of Tom's thread, use
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47017.msg1046073.html#msg1046073

The project you mention at the start wouldn't even make my top 20!


I did a whole thread on this a few years ago when someone asked.  Unfortunately, I think the photos that someone was kind enough to host were on a defunct web site so they don't show up anymore, but here's the thread:


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47017.msg1046167.html#msg1046167

I would have a few more to add now, but perhaps one or two of them will be a golf course yet someday.  If the ground is good enough, there's always hope.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47017.msg1046073.html#msg1046073
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 03:00:19 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2021, 03:19:00 PM »
In Canada, Gil Hanse had a project planned on Vancouver Island that sat in lido forever. It was called "Union Bay Golf Links," and sat on a property that finished on the Strait of Georgia.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuZNpDAOdrM


A province over, Bill Coore, Ben Crenshaw, Mike Keiser and Rod Whitman were all looking at a property south of Lloydminster, Alberta (halfway in between Edmonton and Sasaktoon) called "Alberta Dunes." The land up there is pretty good, but colder, so I suspect that is why it fell through. This would've been before Cabot Links.


Additionally, Rod Whitman was originally supposed to Angus Glen in Toronto and Links at Crowbush Cove on the coast of PEI with Pete Dye.


Back in the day, Thompson had done plans to build a course on top of Mount Royal in downtown Montreal, but I do not think it ever surfaced. The history of Mount Royal is pretty shaky.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2021, 03:25:21 PM »
Every architect has them - courses that they designed and hoped would be built but things didn’t work out.  Years ago, Wayne Morrison and I tried unsuccessfully to get a never built Flynn design constructed called Opa Locka.  It was one of his best designs that for some reason never got built :(


Mark,
  Any project falling though is tough for (probably) both sides, but how can a "best design" be one that was never built? How can that actually be fairly judged?
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2021, 03:28:48 PM »
Anthony,
That is a good question.  Actually Wayne Morrison just emailed me and said that Opa-Locka was actually completed and operated for several years.  That is something I did not know but I am not surprised Wayne found that out.  When we reviewed the Flynn drawings for that course we were very impressed but you are correct that was just our opinion and only that. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2021, 03:35:59 PM »
that sat in lido forever.


Freudian slip ?   ;)

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2021, 03:54:32 PM »
It remains to be seen if Nick Faldo's course on Bartragh Island ever gets built.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/golf/will-nick-faldo-s-dream-of-a-world-class-golf-course-on-bartragh-island-become-reality-1.4315786

Video tour:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82hrNv92D5s


This one not a chance. Faldo also had another course in Ireland (Lough Rynn) that was partially shaped but never finished and seeded. 2008 crash got it, along with a number of other projects in Ireland where construction had started.


As for the ones that never get off the design board, that will be more than get built. Tom himself has at least one in Ireland at Kilshannig.

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2021, 06:46:56 PM »
that sat in lido forever.


Freudian slip ?   ;)


What I thought would be a funny joke ;)

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2021, 08:24:32 PM »
Probably 20 years ago I went to Ft Lauderdale to go through the files of RTJ researching he had done at Olympic Club prior to the US Open in 1955 and 1966. All of his files were in 3 different storage lockers. In one of the lockers were all the files of courses he designed and never built. All of that material has been donated to Cornell.


https://rmc.library.cornell.edu/EAD/htmldocs/RMM06855.html


Here in California, who knows how many courses haven't been built?

Bill Coore was very disappointed that Dos Pueblos was never built in Santa Barbara.  That was shut down by the CCC in 2002.

In Orinda, Jack Nicklaus had designed a course called Montanera which was supposed to be built in 2000. That was a very nice site but was part of a housing community.  The developers ended up sacrificing the golf course to save the real estate.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 08:29:10 PM by Joel_Stewart »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2021, 06:12:41 PM »
Mark,


I did know that you and Scott had worked together. I played Copake with Tim Martin, and enjoyed the heck out of it.


We have family in Blairsville, so I've played Tom's Run and Chestnut Ridge a few times. I'd love to see the reworking of the course, because I'm not convinced that Bill Love did that great a job with the routing.


I've not played Bucknell, but have driven past it on route 15. How is it routed, well or not so much?



Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2021, 06:36:20 PM »
Mark,


I did know that you and Scott had worked together. I played Copake with Tim Martin, and enjoyed the heck out of it.


We have family in Blairsville, so I've played Tom's Run and Chestnut Ridge a few times. I'd love to see the reworking of the course, because I'm not convinced that Bill Love did that great a job with the routing.


I've not played Bucknell, but have driven past it on route 15. How is it routed, well or not so much?


Scott did a master plan 15 years ago give or take at my club.  We didn’t really do much of it. One of the things we did do was some bunkering around the 10th green. He wanted to take a bunker out on the right side. Not many members wanted it to go. The feeling was it would make a relatively easy hole easier. I was on the greens committee at the time. The chairman conveniently had a meeting the morning Scott was with our in house crew to go over the removal. I got awarded the job of telling them not to take it out. Scott was very professional but it was obvious he was pissed. 15 years later Ian Andrew came in and did a great job on our bunker renovation and modified a couple of holes. Ian took that bunker out and everyone loved it........
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2021, 08:02:10 PM »
Ronald,
I thought you knew that Scott worked with me for a while.  I am glad you and Tim got to play Copake CC and glad you enjoyed it.  I am very proud of what we accomplished at that course.  Wish you could have seen what was there beforehand.  Maybe next time you go you and take Ira  ;D   I think he will enjoy it too.


Regarding the Tom's Run and Chestnut Ridge courses; we worked out there for quite a while making changes but what we (and the owners) really wanted to do was a whole new re-routing of the golf courses.  I felt we came up with an awesome new routing plan but some times the best laid plans don't work out.  I am not sure what the status of the two courses are today or much more of all the other changes we proposed were implemented. The GM we were working with moved on and in this business, usually the new guy or new ownership brings in who they want.  That is the way it goes.  I was working on that course around the same time Forrest and I were doing a Master Plan for Oakmont East. 


Rob,
Scott is a smart guy and a lot of fun to work with. He is very talented and I always felt we made a good team.  I love to collaborate and have done so my whole career with many other architects with Forrest Richardson being the one I have worked with the longest (almost from the beginning).  We all bring different skill sets and different perspectives and if you don't have an ego you can really accomplish a lot of good things. I let Forrest get all the photo ops but that's ok with me  ;D

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Never built projects :(
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2021, 09:08:02 PM »
Mark,


The ultimate never built might be Inch. The late Arthur Spring worked on it for about 20 years, but even having a brother who was Prime Minister wasn’t enough to overcome the permitting challenges. So today Inch is nothing more than a place to fantasize what might be done there and a tease if you are playing across the water at Dooks.


Speaking of fantasy, my favorite for a golf course location is the Belle Haven area in Greenwich, CT. It could have been the East Coast Cypress Point, but you probably would have had to buy the land not long after the Civil War, been quite a visionary and willing to turn down lots of offers to buy you out over the next 50 or more years.
Tim Weiman

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