[Patrick_Mucci]

Reading George Bahto's book, and viewing many of the construction photos, I was struck by the clear manufacturing of golf holes, especially green complexes, totally or partially unrelated to the surrounding land, accomplished by CBM, SR and CB.

LIDO, would certainly head the list of manufactured golf courses.

The duplication of the same holes appears over and over again, a constant theme, no matter where the site or its topography.

Levin
Alps
Biarritz
Road
Short
Plateau
Redan
Long
Valley
Eden
Punchbowl
Cape
Knoll
Hog's Back

Over and over again, these three architects "forced" these holes onto the land, not individually and occassionally, but collectively, en masse.

One only has to look at page 232 to see the manner in which holes were totally manufactured and forced onto the land.

In light of the modus operandi of these three classic arthictects, what is the genesis of this MYTH of using the land to find holes, rather then building template holes onto the land, in cookie cutter fashion ?

[SPDB]

Pat - shame on you. You forgot to include your favorite replica hole.

Also, can you tell me why there isn't a Biarritz at NGLA?

[T_MacWood]

"Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front side, approach diagonally, and you have the Redan....The principle of the Redan can be used wherever a long narrow tableland can be found or made. Curiously enough the Redan existed at the National long before the links was thought of. It is a perfectly natural hole."

CB Macdonald-1914

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

The Bottle is my favorite par 4, and I thought about it, but didn't see that many bottle holes replicated by them.

TEPaul and I were discussing the absence of the Biarritz at NGLA today.

If you look carefully at the property, it almost seems that the routing is, "globally, predetermined" with an out and back pattern.  It appears that there would be no room for a hole that traverses the general direction of the property, and perhaps CBM felt that he could put a Biarritz in, at the expense of a better fit of one of his cookie cutter holes.

I felt that Hog's Back could have been shortened to a short par 4, and that the last part of the hole could have been a Biarritz.  But, we'll never know.
 
Sometimes you just can't have everything you want.

Tom MacWood,

If you've ever seen the 4th hole in person, played and studied it, I don't think you would classify the hole as natural, no matter what CBM is alleged to have said.

Stand behind it once and then tell me what you think.

[SPDB]

Pat - at par 73, I think a biarritz could have been fit somewhere. The most common spot cited is #2. But I think CBM is on record as saying the land didn't allow it.

I'm not arguing against your theory, I think you are correct. I've seen an Alps/Punchbowl hole at Camargo laid over flat ground, and other examples where their replica holes were "forced" on the property. But nevertheless, they did use land forms if they thought their replicas would be enhanced by them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Perhaps, but did they have an agenda of placing their template holes somewhere on the property, and forcing that fit if they couldn't find the right landform.

What is interesting is that CBM was desperate to use the polo fields at PRC, pancake flat land.  I wonder if any drawings or routings exist, which incorporated this land.

And, I wonder what holes he designed that replaced the holes he had intended for the polo fields ?

[SPDB]

I think the answer to your first question is yes, but not unconditionally. I mean is there such a thing as land suitable for a biarritz hole, except for a 275 yard long corridor?

I think CBM's ego was just too big to accept the fact that they would rather use land to play polo than play on one of HIS courses. Also, since the golf course would be away from the clubhouse, the focus would remain on polo, and not HIS golf course.

I don't think he was interested in the land specifically, only what it meant symbolically.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

It appears that CBM wanted to use the polo fields, whether it was to emphasize golf or to de-emphasize polo isn't clear.

I wonder if he ever offered a routing, or if his intent was nipped before it could get off the ground and onto paper ?

If he wanted to use the dead flat polo fields, I would imagine that he wouldn't have left them looking like holes at GCGC.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
What does what I've seen or not seen at the NGLA have to do with Charlie Macdonald's quote?

I know you like to think the 4th is manufactured, but you are wrong according to CB, and I think he may know a little more about the subject than you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

The principle of the Redan can be used wherever a long narrow tableland can be found or MADE.

Curiously enough the Redan existed at the National long before the links was thought of. It is a perfectly natural hole."
CB Macdonald-1914

The basic ridge or tableland was there, but the hole was
MADE, read, constructed and manufactured.

Despite your mis-interpretation of CBM's words, that hole was
MADE, and not sitting there naturally.

One only has to walk around it to see how it was constructed, but, you've never done that, so you wouldn't know what you're talking about with regard to the structure and construction of the hole relative to the surrounding land, would you ?

SPDB,

CBM indicated that they did not have enough money for a clubhouse, hence they wanted to start near the Shinnecock Inn.

He also stated that he wanted to fit the best of his template holes into the land.

The Shinnecock Inn burned down in 1909.

In addition, one would have to look at the vast open space between the current 18th and 1st holes, and wonder why that land, land with a view of the water, wouldn't be used for a hole, choosing instead to use the current 1st fairway ?

Why, when the outbound and inbound holes run so close to each other, would he suddenly leave this huge gap, void of a golf hole, if not to reserve it for a substantial clubhouse ??

I'm starting to like my theory even more  

[T_MacWood]

Pat
The article CB's quote comes from is very interesting. It was from series of articles writen by Macdonald on the template holes. This article goes into the Redan, the original at Nroth Berwick and what he looked for in creating new ones. Some of the other Redans he mentions are at Piping Rock, Merion (where he consulted) and Sleepy Hollow. He also loved the 3rd at PVGC which he said exhibited Redan principles. It is clear he says it is possible to discover or make a Redan.

Regarding the 4th at NGLA, it appears you are trying to pervert his words...bad form.

He said, "Curiously enough the Redan existed at the National long before the links was thought of. It is a perfectly natural hole."

As interesting as your theories on Macdonald & company are, the direct thoughts and words of the men in question are a little more enlightening.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Patrick,
I'm not going to touch this one, but did MacDonald actually use the word "Template?"

[A_Clay_Man]

Maybe they were like boys with new toys? Langford's Lawsonia is completely constructed at green end but it's before that, the use of the land comes into play.

Hey Dick, I was thinking of this the other day, is the green on the seventh at Lawsonia a modified biarritz? I remember the swale coming off the hillside and just wandered if you ever felt this.

[George_Bahto]

I think the "template" thing came from RTJ who thought SR and CBM and Charlie Banks repetitious .... and listen to who is was doing the talking "repetitious" -  I think I may have read that ("template") in the Montclair GC club history where RTJ was dissing Banks -  of course Banks' nine there is the most preferred to play and far and away the best nine on their 36-hole layout


..... the reason CB did not build a Biarritz at National was he felt he could not replicate the original Chasm hole in France: 80' cliff, played across the Bay of Biscay to a 50' cliffside to the green

He relented at Piping Rock building a ground level version and so it went until Yale and then the SR "thingie" at Cypress

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Have you ever inspected the 4th hole from 360 degrees ?

Yes or NO ?

I would venture to say that he was refering to the natural tableland or ridge that rises to support the 5th tee and early part of the 4th green, but the green complex itself was
MADE and not naturally sitting there.

Anyone who examines that complex can see that.

So you choose to refute the physical facts, relying on your interpretation of his words, without actually having studied the 4th hole at NGLA.

Why doesn't that surprise me ?

Tommy Naccarato,

I don't know whether CBM used the word template in his written or spoken words, but he did use it in practice with the replication of the same holes.

CBM stated, "Again we studied the contours earnestly; selecting those that would fit in naturally with the various
classical holes I had in mind... We found an Alps, we found and ideal Redan, then we discovered a place where we could put the Eden hole which would not permit a topped ball to run up on the green.  Then we found a wonderful water-hole, now the Cape."

It appears that he refers to them as classical holes and includes their identifiable reference.  So many of these holes find their way into other designs, complete with the retention of their names on the scorecards.

Whether he used the word "template" in his nomenclature would seem immaterial since he used the designs in practice and refered to these classical holes by name, over and over and over again.  

This may be a case where action speaks louder then words.

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