Webb Simpson on distance debate-need better golf design

[Jeff Schley]

Nothing wrong with a course where two serious golfers, one 30, the other 60, can compete straight up. This is only done by punishing the wayward drives or limiting the optimum distance off the tee. Now where is the harm in that?

So, Turnberry. 2009.

Well said.

[JESII]

Nothing I've seen punishes wayward driving like a great green design...

[Jaeger Kovich]

Webb is just moaning about bunkers at 290... you move them to 275 or 310 and he will shut right up.


This a guy that plays a most of his golf at Quail Hollow if I’m not mistaken.. maybe every course should blow itself up ever 2 years just to keep him happy

[John Kavanaugh]

Nothing I've seen punishes wayward driving like a great green design...

And how did eliminating the belly putter promote great green design?

[John Kavanaugh]

Webb is just moaning about bunkers at 290... you move them to 275 or 310 and he will shut right up.


This a guy that plays a most of his golf at Quail Hollow if I’m not mistaken.. maybe every course should blow itself up ever 2 years just to keep him happy

What makes you think Webb is unhappy? He is suddenly on the cusp of turning a novelty act into a hall of fame career.

[Steve Lapper]

Someone, anyone, please remind me why some partly brain-dead, limited (only to ball-striking and adaptive putting) talent should now be considered an expert on golf course architecture?


With several hundred professional golfers regularly mentioned in the media spotlight, isn't yet wholly apparent that these guys are good at a single thing...hitting the golf ball a long way and competing to get it in the hole...and hardly experts at much else of anything?


I for one am tired of paying much, if any, heed to these dolts. Maybe 1% of them truly understand much of anything about golf course architecture, yet the click-hungry media cedes unwarranted attention to them.


Architecture relates as much, if not more, to the land available for play. Not too many tour players even understand that. Until these PGA pros prove whatever higher education they may have received (doubtful they learned much more than how to do agent-manager related math) demands our respect, consider me disdainful of most anything coming from their well-fed mouths.

[Bernie Bell]

Simpson's got as much right as anyone to express his opinion, and more than most.  He points to TPC Harding (versus Southwinds) as a positive example.  What do you think of that on the merits? 

[John Kavanaugh]

Someone, anyone, please remind me why some partly brain-dead, limited (only to ball-striking and adaptive putting) talent should now be considered an expert on golf course architecture?


With several hundred professional golfers regularly mentioned in the media spotlight, isn't yet wholly apparent that these guys are good at a single thing...hitting the golf ball a long way and competing to get it in the hole...and hardly experts at much else of anything?


I for one am tired of paying much, if any, heed to these dolts. Maybe 1% of them truly understand much of anything about golf course architecture, yet the click-hungry media cedes unwarranted attention to them.


Architecture relates as much, if not more, to the land available for play. Not too many tour players even understand that. Until these PGA pros prove whatever higher education they may have received (doubtful they learned much more than how to do agent-manager related math) demands our respect, consider me disdainful of most anything coming from their well-fed mouths.

Golf and politics seem to have at least one thing in common. Those who are really good at it are seen as idiots by the people pontificating from the peanut gallery.

[John Kavanaugh]

One thing I don't understand about this game is how you can become one of the best golfers in the world and not understand golf design.

[David Ober]

Golf and politics seem to have at least one thing in common. Those who are really good at it are seen as idiots by the people pontificating from the peanut gallery.

Yes indeed.

[Jason Thurman]

Random thoughts:

Does it matter that Webb didn't say anything about "better course design"? That's just the article's headline.


All respect to Jim Sullivan, but the idea that "nothing punishes wayward driving like great green design" is just nonsense. Consider OB. I'll take a 3 putt or an uphill pitch over stroke-and-distance anytime.


Call him braindead all you want, but Simpson is right on this. Small targets, short doglegs, and punishing rough reestablish a priority on accuracy. They make the course harder for hackers too, of course. But they also give the shorter hitting good player a chance to compete with the longer hitting good player.


John's points in this thread are interesting. Is it possible that the focus on enabling hackers with width, width, and more width has had the unintended consequence of making it damn near impossible for a skilled shorter hitter to compete with a skilled longer hitter? Have we been so busy trying not to bludgeon high handicappers that we've eradicated the Corey Pavins of the world from competing?

[JESII]

One thing I don't understand about this game is how you can become one of the best golfers in the world and not understand golf design.

I AM one of the best drivers in the world...can I run your next road project?

[JESII]

Jason,


Hitting a ball our of bounds may punish you MORE than a poor angle that you cannot hit the green (or at least near a certain hole location) from...but it does not punish it better. I'd like a poor drive to cost a half a stroke...OB costs a full stroke and today's TOUR greens present close to zero.

[Steve Lapper]

Someone, anyone, please remind me why some partly brain-dead, limited (only to ball-striking and adaptive putting) talent should now be considered an expert on golf course architecture?


With several hundred professional golfers regularly mentioned in the media spotlight, isn't yet wholly apparent that these guys are good at a single thing...hitting the golf ball a long way and competing to get it in the hole...and hardly experts at much else of anything?


I for one am tired of paying much, if any, heed to these dolts. Maybe 1% of them truly understand much of anything about golf course architecture, yet the click-hungry media cedes unwarranted attention to them.


Architecture relates as much, if not more, to the land available for play. Not too many tour players even understand that. Until these PGA pros prove whatever higher education they may have received (doubtful they learned much more than how to do agent-manager related math) demands our respect, consider me disdainful of most anything coming from their well-fed mouths.

Golf and politics seem to have at least one thing in common. Those who are really good at it are seen as idiots by the people pontificating from the peanut gallery.

Barney,


   Have you ever designed, built or operated a golf course??? My guess is No.


    I'll leave the bag of Planters for you to hold.

[John Kavanaugh]

One thing I don't understand about this game is how you can become one of the best golfers in the world and not understand golf design.

I AM one of the best drivers in the world...can I run your next road project?

My family has been building roads for over 90 years now. Every innovation in construction has been in response to the abilities and needs of those who drive. Your input would be welcome and invaluable.

[Tom_Doak]

 Is it possible that the focus on enabling hackers with width, width, and more width has had the unintended consequence of making it damn near impossible for a skilled shorter hitter to compete with a skilled longer hitter? Have we been so busy trying not to bludgeon high handicappers that we've eradicated the Corey Pavins of the world from competing?

Well, partly.  But the other part of the problem is that the short hitters aren't better than Tiger and Koepka from 100 yards in to make up for being shorter, so they are demanding penal rough and narrow fairways.  But how many short hitters were in the mix at Bethpage or Shinnecock?


If we made all golf courses like The Olympic Club, a lot of people would quit playing golf, myself included.

[Joe Zucker]

What if we had tournaments where the max swing speed was 100mph?  There are 6 ft and under basketball leagues, so this would be similar in concept.  It would be a bit more democratic since anyone can swing below 100mph in theory.  Obviously there are practical difficulties in monitoring it, but I think it could be fun in the same way we have hickory tournaments. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Part of that sounds like the average golfers idea of fw bunker placement - 10+ yards past their normal tee shot seems perfect.


Of course, in the whole wide fw/narrow fw debate, it is rare for someone to take the middle ground, i.e., how about medium wide fairways?  Or, the old standby, moved down the fw a bit - gradually narrow the fw from 260-320 or so, maybe only 300-400 these days.

[Jeff Schley]

I forgot who said it and exactly the quote, but I'm sure someone here does.

"There's the hole, play it however you want"

[Jeff_Brauer]

Think it was Ross......but I always wondered if any/all strategies equally welcome was actually any strategy at all?  While he doesn't expressly say any strategy is equal, it implies it, I think. 


Wouldn't a hole with an advantage to a draw, rather than a target that accepts any shot equally be more strategic?


Then of course, there is the question of acceptable degree of error for any particular shot type vs. another.

[Wade Whitehead]

Don't let them use tees.

I don't think "30 guys" are going to cover that bunker off the deck.

WW

[Tim Gavrich]

One thing I don't understand about this game is how you can become one of the best golfers in the world and not understand golf design.

That understanding architecture and design is not an important part of building a world-class competitive golf skillset speaks to how straightforward the courses that golfers play on the way to and in the elite professional ranks have been over the years.


I partly take him feeling the need to keep advocating for the type of one-dimensional golf he and his peers have been used to as a sign that we're finally starting to see more strategically interesting courses and setups at the elite levels a little more often.


I would also add that he benefits from the guidance of one of the Tour's best caddies, Paul Tesori. It would be interesting to see how he (and everyone else) would do without caddies for a tournament.

[John Kavanaugh]

I was being sarcastic. The top pros hit far more varied clubs off the tee than any weekend hack. Without question they have studied the subject the magic 10,000 hrs.


I'm going to hate myself for this but why doesn't RoMo hit up his fellow WF alum and request an interview?

[Brad Steven]

In the end, the only thing that really slows the tour players down are things that introduce variability - most notably, wind and greens they can't easily hold.  Tour players are so dialed in that length, smallness or narrowness of target etc. really don't present much of a challenge.  Plus, they hit the ball so well out of the penal rough that even that isn't challenge enough.  A tour player with 210 into a soft green with minimal wind is going to hit a 5 iron or something +/- 2 or 3 yards on both length and line.  If a 15 mph wind is blowing that may or may not remain while their shot is in the air and the green is sufficiently hard that their ball may or may not stop where they want it, it introduces a level of variability that neutralizes their precision and one of the main things that separates them from us.  The common man, has so much variability built into the shots we hit, external variability like wind and crazy bounces are, comparatively, less troubling. 


Design features that simply make the golf course more difficult will only end up making the golf course less playable for all.  A standardized tournament ball should have been put in place long ago but the horses have long since left the barn.  Finding ways to make the outcome of golf shots less certain is the only way I can think to slow them down. 

[John Kavanaugh]

The field size in pro tournaments are too large. Take that many people and someone is going to have a great week. If we would concentrate on the bottom half of the field this entire problem disappears.