News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« on: November 05, 2003, 06:58:37 AM »
    Having played there on a glorious fall day last week, I couldn't help but notice (and find) several major trees that clearly ought to be felled or trimmed in order to achieve the full strategic value and fairness of this great course. Several places had trees or branches hanging close to bunkers and quite a few unjustly pinched the fairways excessively.
    My question is just how does anyone manage to convince the green's committee to realize the potential of the course without these trees? Are there affordable software programsn that might illustrate the change?
   Fenway is close to earning its spot among the top 3 Westchester courses (notwithstanding the Donald's claim to numero uno!). Some might argue that it doesn't deserve to be measured amidst QR, WFW, And WFE, but I can near guarantee they haven't played more than 1-2 rounds there in the past 12mos.
   I do believe some the club's better golfers recognize this remaining blemish on an otherwise outstanding track. I just want to hear any advice on how to postulate and effect a solid clearing plan.
Logged
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

GeoffreyC

Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2003, 09:01:08 AM »
Slapper

Every time I go to Fenway (several times per year) I mention tree removal. Most every Golfweek rater that sees Fenway (at least with me) mentions that the course would be so much better without the trees.

To their credit, they have removed quite a few including the inside of #5 and those horrible ones on the left of #3 near the green.  There are plans (I've been told) to remove lots of trees on the border of #9 and 18 and reroute the creek up in that direction.

My take is that they want some BIG tournaments and there was/is reluctance to do anything that could be taken as making the course any easier.
Logged

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2003, 09:06:21 AM »
Slapper,

Yes, software programs are available that will help illustrate alterations visually to a green committee or club board. It gets rather complicated, but I use Adobe Photoshop Elements Version 6.0 in combination with Adobe Photo Deluxe. It has developed in sort of an art form, but I am able to clone, recreate and reposition Ross bunkers, add fescue to an image, and yes, I can remove trees that clutter open spaces and encroach on play.

It is a great marketing tool for those interested in restoration. Simply take original photographic evidence of a course, then alter a current image of your evolved course with Adobe to emulate the original. If you think (before and after) photos for comparison are persuasive, (before, now and futures) are even more powerful. Anyway, some examples are below.

Dunlop

Now


Future


Now


Future

« Last Edit: November 05, 2003, 09:08:17 AM by Dunlop_White »
Logged

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2003, 09:12:46 AM »
Speaking as someone who does a moderate amount of Photoshop work, my suggestion is to hire Dunlop! Nice job, it's not nearly as easy as those examples might lead people to believe.

I also can't help but wonder how many non architectural enthusiasts would prefer the photos with the trees.
Logged
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2003, 09:15:19 AM »
Probably the best way to convince any club of the benefit of clearing back trees and restoring the course to the way it was designed (in the context of trees) is to simply point out those high profile and hugely respected courses that have already done it. Just mention that courses such as Oakmont, Shinnecock, NGLA have done it massively and you basically couldn't find a better way to get their attention!

We struggled in the very beginnning of our restoration planning considering removing even a single tree but the mention in a large membership meeting what Oakmont was doing tree-wise in a restoration move and the magnitude of it and all of a sudden the fussin' and grousin' about tree removal quieted down to near silence!!
Logged

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2003, 09:20:18 AM »
Nice work Dunlop! In the first photo the trees don't bother me that much because there seems to be a fair amout of room, but I still like it better with them gone. The second photo is a no brainer. How could anyone argue for keeping those trees after seeing those photos?
Logged

Jim_Michaels

Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2003, 09:25:16 AM »
This is one area where the USGA does, and can continue to do, some good. Generally members won't take much stock in a green chairman or superintendent taking the position that trees need to go, but when backed up by the Blue Jackets, suddenly they are credible.  The Green Section is an asset that clubs should use to get this sort of thing going.
Logged

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2003, 09:28:32 AM »
Certain tactics do work better than others.

1. Because memberships are more concerned with good agronomics than with strategic shot making, it would be good politics to approach tree removal with the emphasis on growing healthy turfgrass.

2. Refer to the potential project as a tree "management", not removal.

3. Arbitrary, third party experts are often persuasive. Memberships tend to trust those who do not have a personal interest or agenda in club politics. Rather, architects with a tree management background should assess how trees interact with golf course strategy, aesthetics, agronomy, and safety.  

4. Then there is Adobe photoshop!
Logged

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2003, 10:20:53 AM »
5. Of course, having Dave Oatis (USGA - N/E greensection) or Brad Klein  present a slide show can help as well.
Logged

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2003, 10:30:25 AM »
Another Adobe Photoshop example is below:

Now

Note that the cart path is visually distracting as it traverses the entire hole. Note the 3 Holly trees which literally suck-up golf balls. Note the impinging pines which obscure the specimen oak therebehind.

Future

Cart path removed along the landing area, holly trees and pines removed to expose and highlight grand oak.
Logged

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2003, 10:30:28 AM »


Its pretty cool that all the Golfweek raters think the same way on trees at Fenway.  Maybe they should present a position paper to the club outlining how much better they would fare in the rankings if they "only just listened".

It has been my experience that many clubs do not care about rankings or outsiders thoughts.  Mr. Childs, are you a member  or you have an idea as to how important "rankings" are to this spcific membership.  I have never played the course but have heard good things on this site as a hidden gem.  Has the membership taken an interest in the rankings?
Logged

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2003, 10:32:48 AM »
Geoff, George, Dunlop and Tom,

    Thank you all for some very important and worthy advice. I am hoping this will help some of the Fenway folks finish the job...

   It will be nice if this GCA board can play some small, yet significant part in prodding the tenders of these great courses to make them even better.

slap
Logged
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2003, 10:35:02 AM »
Hammy,

   This membership is ineed aware of what a great course they have. I can't attest to their desires per the rankings, but any further recognition among their Westchester esteemed breathen is welcome.
Logged
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

GeoffreyC

Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2003, 10:48:35 AM »
Dunlop

Can you do anything with this?

Hole #10 at Fenway. It would be nice to see the green from the tee especially as there is an OB down the left side.



There is a similar and perhaps worse problem on the inside of hole #7.  It would be great to see that green (and #10 green) from the tee.

Hamilton.  I wish I were a member at Fenway. I think the membership now know what a great course they have and credit goes to Gil Hanse and his company as well as Steve Frankel who was in charge of the committee that did the great restoration. They are very aware of ranking and appreciate the recognition from GW magazine.
Logged

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2003, 10:56:59 AM »


I think then that the membership should keep listening to Gil and Mr. Frankel. :)
Logged

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2003, 11:05:58 AM »
Geoff,

   Don't forget the inside left tree on #2 fairway, the left side of the rough tree behind the bunker on #3,the trees to the back right of #6's green(blocks out the clubhouse)etc..

   The trees up on 7 and the ones blocking the back of 9 are definitely worth making into firewood., don't you think?
Logged
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

GeoffreyC

Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2003, 11:08:12 AM »
Slapper

I agree totally. They could stand to lose 500 trees. I think it will take a real effort to get them to agree to that much.
Logged

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2003, 11:49:26 AM »
I played the course two weeks ago after playing Quaker Ridge earlier in the day. In my view, if they would remove the right trees, this course would be at least as good as QR and would be a serious candidate for GOLFWEEK's top 25 Classic.
Logged
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2003, 12:12:52 PM »
Jim, I agree that it is a great golf course deserving high recognition.

In truth, I think this is such a no brainer for the members to remove trees, Imagine looking to the East side of the property where the majority of the golf holes are, and having that openess througout. I think it could be equated to the similar view one can see at Piping Rock. As far as the more improtant aspect of playability, I think that speaks for itself.

I think we should be applauding the members as well as Steve Frankel and staff of how well they have come along to rejuevanating this classic Tillie layout. Think of baby steps if you will, and that is probably a good thing for them to do this at a slower pace--making sure the money is well spent in certain areas as it comes along.
Logged

Jim_Michaels

Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2003, 12:13:58 PM »
And if Quaker Ridge would remove 500 trees, it would also be a lot better. There is a theme here guys, and it is not complicated!
Logged

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2003, 12:27:13 PM »
Geoff,

Just did a little work to your image. Is this what you want?

Dunlop

Logged

GeoffreyC

Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2003, 12:35:41 PM »
Dunlop

Great - now we're getting close.  Thanks.  If a few more trees were removed at the corner and next to the OB there would be a view of this green and a temptation to challenge the OB
Logged

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2003, 01:28:41 PM »
Geoffrey Childs,

Get the lousy row of little soldiers out first, then try to get them to thin out and selectively remove trees at the corner. A sight line temptation will likely help this hole, but again I'm only commenting on the picture as I have unfortunately not been to Fenway.

Dunlop
Logged

GeoffreyC

Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2003, 01:45:20 PM »
Dunlop

Good advice. Thanks for your effort.  I'm sure the folks at Fenway will see the difference in the photos and hopefully eliminate the offending trees.

Come up and see Fenway next season.  You will enjoy the course.
Logged

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Losing the last few trees at Fenway
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2003, 10:58:48 AM »
Geoffrey Childs,

You may have seen this before as I have posted it several times, but the following images were used to transform the 17th at Roaring Gap. You should have similar results at Finway. Good luck!

This image represented the hole in 2001


This image reprsented my proposal of how it should look.(Adobe Photoshop)


Today!!!!


Dunlop
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back