[Bret Lawrence]

Mike,


That sounds about right.  I think there are other potential clues as well.  Valentine Flood’s course was set on 35 acres, today’s course is set on 42 acres.  They could have acquired 7 more acres somewhere along the way or they used an entirely different parcel of land.


Floods course was around 2,500 yards, the Pawling School Golf Course was listed at 3,000 yards in the 20’s and today’s course is shorter than both of those, but on 7 more acres than Floods course.


Bret

[Tom Buggy]

Some good news; I will be reviewing the Town of Pawling records on Friday, September 11. Some bad news; an arrangement to review Pawling Historical Society records has not yet been able to be made. I have contacted the Trinity-Pawling School about their archives but have not yet received a response.

Using multiple combinations of the terms Dutcher, Dutcher House and Pawling combined with the terms golf, golf course, links and golf links, I have done additional searching of the Fulton History newspaper archive that includes several local newspapers in the Pawling area. The search results yielded nothing in the 1880 to 1900 time frame, about which I will not yet make any conclusions or conjectures. However, with respect to the 9-hole golf course of 1901 that is firmly established, I have found the following:

-- I believe that whatever names are attributed to it, it is the same course property named Pawling Golf Links on the 1909 map. I do not believe that the variations in yardage and acreage reported in the press and by the retired historian affect this conclusion.
-- The 1901 name combined in one way or another with Dutcher House changed to Pawling Golf Links between 1904 and 1909.
-- The name Pawling Golf Course became the prevalent name by the early 1920s.
-- In 1917, Leland Blankenship leased the Dutcher House Hotel, with the apparent provision to offer free golf on the Pawling Golf    Links to hotel guests.
-- In 1938, Phillip Ferry leased the golf course from Mrs. Helen Wiletts Dutcher.
-- The course name changed to Dutcher Golf Course in 1955 when the property was deeded to the Town of Pawling, although the   name Pawling Golf Course continued to be used at times in newspaper articles for a few years after 1955.

An FYI sidelight from the research is 1920 articles in the New York Evening Post and the Poughkeepsie Eagle-News that announced a new 18-hole course designed by Devereaux Emmett to be built by the entity Pawling Golf and Country Club on 178 acres of land called the John Arnold Farm, which was just south of the village and close to the Pawling Golf Course. The project, which included a $50,000 clubhouse, apparently did not proceed (but it does explain the Pawling Golf and Country Club name mentioned previously in this thread).
 

[MCirba]

Thanks for the update, Tom.  I'm hopeful that more information may be forthcoming in your upcoming visit(s).

[Bret Lawrence]

Thanks for the update Tom.


John Arnold Farm is interesting, because the superintendent of the Dutcher House Golf Links was John Arnold in the early years.


In an article from 1901 he mentions he needs to finish his work on the golf course so he can get back to haying his fields.  There are several other mentions of him in the next few years following. I believe W.S. Flore was the name of another course superintendent.  These are good names to search as well.





Max Marston, winner of the 1923 US Amateur attended The Pawling School as did Phillip Van Gelder Carter.  These two were considered two of the top ranked Amateurs in the US in the teens and 20’s.

[Bret Lawrence]

Pawling School Golf Course may have stretched the truth when they listed their course as 3,000 yards in the Annual Golf Guides.


Courtesy of the USGA Seagle Archives:



It looks like today’s 2nd hole was the 1st hole in 1933 and today’s 1st hole was the 9th hole in 1933. Other than the starting point, the course appears to have changed very little since 1933.


There is a 1936 aerial of Pawling, but it’s not the clearest picture. If you click on the tab in the top left you can select various years.  1940 looks to be clear.
https://gis.dutchessny.gov/aerialaccess/

[Tom Buggy]

Bret,


A.1927 article in the Pawling Chronicle about the Pawling golf links (note lower case on golf links) says that Caretaker Wm. Fiore would be starting his 17th year of service "on these grounds."

[Tom Buggy]

UPDATE: I and the retired village historian visited the town record room on 9/18. The visit did not yield anything definitive about the origin and evolution of the claimed 3-hole course, but it did yield two artifacts of note. One of these is a copy of a 1902 or 1903 (determined by researching the manager's name) Dutcher House pamphlet that mentions the 9-hole course and includes photographs of players on the course and the house that was used as a clubhouse. There is no content related to the 3-hole course.


The other artifact is an early 1990s document about the 3-hole course prepared by the course professional in conjunction with the then town historian. The document's content tracks with currently published information: John Dutcher's visit with the Morris' in St. Andrews; building of the course in 1885 for the private use of Dutcher, his friends and guests of the new Dutcher House Hotel; opening the course to the public in 1890 with the name Pawling Golf Links. There is no mention of the eventual 9-hole course.


Yesterday, I tried to track down both the professional and the historian to pursue sources of the document's content. Unfortunately, the professional died in 2018. The historian is still alive but I have not yet been able to locate her. That effort and the still unscheduled visit to the Pawking Historical Society are the next steps.


Note: I tried to insert or attach one of the photographs of people on the 9-hole course. I got an error message about the upload facility being unwriteable and could not get back to the post I was writing. Is there a tutorial somewhere about how to insert graphic files such a JPGs? The Attach feature doesn't work for me.

[MCirba]

Tom,

Thanks for the update.   If you email me the photo I'd be happy to post it.

[MCirba]

Courtesy of Tom Buggy, following are three photographs from the Dutcher House 1902 or 1903 pamphlet showing play on the golf course at that time.   I love this stuff.   I'd be curious to hear from anyone who's played there if they can locate these image locations on the present golf course?

[Tom Buggy]

I believe it is known that the 1st tee of the original 9-hole course was at the site of what now is the 2nd tee. That would make the green shown in the background of the 1st tee photo to be the 1st green of the present course, or perhaps the 3rd green of the present course.

[MCirba]

I believe it is known that the 1st tee of the original 9-hole course was at the site of what now is the 2nd tee. That would make the green shown in the background of the 1st tee photo to be the 1st green of the present course, or perhaps the 3rd green of the present course.

Tom,

Then I believe that green (then the 9th) behind the first tee in the photo would be today's 1st green.   Here's the map you sent me from today's scorecard.



In the photo of the then 9th green that's likely the unoccupied first tee, fence rail, and original clubhouse behind it.   Would you agree?

[MCirba]

From the same pamphlet, here's the original clubhouse at Dutcher.

[Tom Buggy]

I believe it is known that the 1st tee of the original 9-hole course was at the site of what now is the 2nd tee. That would make the green shown in the background of the 1st tee photo to be the 1st green of the present course, or perhaps the 3rd green of the present course.

Tom,

Then I believe that green (then the 9th) behind the first tee in the photo would be today's 1st green.   Here's the map you sent me from today's scorecard.



In the photo of the then 9th green that's likely the unoccupied first tee, fence rail, and original clubhouse behind it.   Would you agree?

Mike, I agree with both statements.

[Tom Buggy]

After a long period of Covid-related and other delays, the following describes the results of my research about the origin of Dutcher Golf Course in Pawling NY.
The initial claim in this topic about a private 3-hole Dutcher golf course in 1885 that was later expanded to 9 holes, and became public in 1890, was based on multiple public documents and a video on the Town of Pawling website which presented that scenario. The scenario supports a claim that Dutcher is the oldest public golf course in the United States. Appropriate questions were raised in this forum about the validity of the claim, especially with respect to whether there is definitive contemporaneous evidence to support it. These questions led to much research in a variety of forms which I will not burden you with.
The major result of the research is that contemporaneous evidence does not exist to support the 1885/1890 scenario. Further, there is contemporaneous newspaper-based evidence that the first Dutcher course was a 9-hole course that opened in 1901. There is also circumstantial evidence which disputes the 1885/1890 scenario. A central part of the scenario is that the 3-hole course was built in conjunction with the opening of the Dutcher House Hotel. Regular advertisements for the hotel in New York City newspapers in the period from 1885 to 1900 mention several sports activities, including tennis, bowling, croquet, bicycle riding and fishing. There is no mention of golf in the advertisements until 1901. In addition, no articles about a Dutcher course have been found in local newspaper reporting in the 1885-1890 time period.

An interesting side-note of the new research is that questions about the 1885/1890 scenario have been raised in the past. In the early 1980s, the Pawling recreation director responsible for the course questioned the 1890 date, without result. In an 1985 newspaper article, a town resident and active player at the course also questioned the 1890 date and offered to do research; there is no record of any result.
The public documents with the 1885/1890 scenario did not begin to appear until the early 1990s. (The Town video appeared in the early 2000s.) Notable among the documents was an article in the USGA's Golf Journal in October 1993. The article was provided by a now deceased golf professional at the Dutcher course who also claimed to be a golf historian. Is it possible that the golf professional fabricated the scenario? Or, is it possible that the 1885/1890 scenario is true, and it escaped newspaper coverage and advertisement inclusion until 1901? Perhaps 'Yes' is the answer to one of the questions, and perhaps new evidence will surface in the future. However, a fundamental conclusion remains for the present: there is no definitive evidence to support a claim that Dutcher is the oldest public golf course in the United States.

[Tim Martin]

I got a chance to play Dutcher GC today in Pawling, NY and it was a blast. It’s a wild piece of land where blindness rules the day on both tee shots and approaches including a couple of Dell holes. Very laid back/no frills setup with plenty of charm and $19 to walk nine holes as a non resident. I can’t offer up any additional information on the provenance but for those that like old and quirky it’s not to be missed. Not far are Vails Grove and Pehquenakonck which when added to Dutcher could be quite a 27 hole day. I can’t remember the last par five I hit in two shots but at 375yards(scorecard had it as a 5 ) with a blind tee shot and a blind second over quite a hill I two putted for birdie and left with a huge smile. If it wasn’t for Death Valley temps I would have gone around again.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

What about Foxburg in PA?


Foxburg Country Club, established in 1887, is the oldest golf course in continuous use in the United States. It is located in Foxburg,]Clarion County, Pennsylvania[], United States of America, approximately 55 miles (89 km) north of Pittsburgh[ on a hill rising about 300 feet above the Allegheny Rive. The course was listed in 2007 as Foxburg Country Club and Golf Courseon the National Register of Historic Places The clubhouse contains the American Golf Hall of Fame.

[Doug Bolls]

From the Dorset Field Club in Vermont web site:


Few clubs boast a lineage as impressive as the Dorset Field Club. Established in 1886, it proudly holds the title of the oldest continuously operating golf course in the United Stares and is one of the twenty-five oldest courses in the world.
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[Jim Hoak]

Not to diverge from this exact question, but a related question is the oldest public golf course west of the Mississippi.  Old Del Monte, out by the Monterey airport and owned by Pebble Beach Company, makes this claim, but I have heard others claim it as well.  It opened in 1897.  What about others?

[Doug Bolls]

I played Gearhart Links a couple of months ago - they claim to be oldest west of the Mississippi.  From their website:


Legend has it that Gearhart Golf Links began life in about 1888, starting out as three holes of true links-style golf amongst the seaside meadows that characterize the North Oregon coast. Golf, somewhat new to the U.S., came to Gearhart by way of visitors to the bustling resort who had experienced the game in Europe and found Gearhart’s meadows the perfect setting. By 1892, golf was a regular pastime for guests of the Hotel Gearhart on the three-hole course just across the street. With this history, Gearhart Golf Links is The Oldest Golf Course West of the Mississippi River and shares the early spotlight with such courses as Victoria Golf Club (1893), Tacoma Country and Golf Club (1894) and Del Monte Golf Club (1897).

[Matt Schoolfield]

I guess my only question in this thread is whether on not there is a rigid difference between a "public" and a "private" course pre-1913, and the adoption of the 16th Amendment, and the Revenue Act of 1913. In researching Ingleside GC, it seemed in many of the newspaper articles that pretty much everyone was expected to play on private courses, and before the creation of a national tax system, I'd say it was probably fairly piecemeal as to whether and how states enforced any taxes on these clubs, thus the need to be public or private was not hard and fast.

My suspicion is that prior to 1913, US clubs mirrored a mutuality doctrine that the UK still uses.

Please let me know if I'm mistaken in this view.

[Phil Young]

Jim, As far as I can tell, the oldest public course west of the Mississippi opened for play on May, 23rd, 1896. It was built on the Presidio and it was the golf course of the San Francisco Golf Club. Though built by this private club, the golf course itself was also open for play by the public, which was the agreement made by SFGC with the Presidio in order to build the golf course and have their club use it. The clubhouse was built near the First Avenue entrance to the Presidio.
      The course itself was laid out by William Robertson, and the building of it was overseen by John Lawson, both scotsman who were founding members of SFGC. That makes the golf course unique having it be the site of both a private club and public golf course at the same time.

[Niall C]

That makes the golf course unique having it be the site of both a private club and public golf course at the same time.

Unique in the US presumably is what you mean ? It was the normal model in the UK up until the 1890's. Think of St Andrews, Leith, Musselburgh, Bruntsfield, Glasgow, Perth, Montrose etc. I imagine that folk at SFGC thought that was the way to go until they discovered the pitfalls of playing on public land.


Niall 

[Phil Young]

Niall, I assumed it was about U.S. courses as there are far too many public courses on "the other side of the pond" that were public courses going back many scores of years before the first one on this side.


As for SFGC, it was founded by 4 gentleman from Scotland who came over and settled in San Francisco. They were principals of Balfour, Guthrie & Company, an affiliate of Balfour, Williamson & Company, Liverpool. When they held the ffirst club championship, the winner was awarded the Liverpool Medal. With that background, they certainly had no problem sharing the golf course they were allowed to build with the public.


As for the "pitfalls of playing on public land," it was the rare golf club in the U. S. that didn't build golf courses on land owned by others. Often it would be on farm land as growing of grass was easy and leasing substantial acreage to build a course on was as well. The problems in almost every case was that the property owner was always raising the lease rate a cosniderable amount when the lease was up. It became the norm to lease and then buy the land leased or buy the land and build as the elase was running out.


It was a bit different for SFGC at Presidio. They were forced out for political reasons. The head of the base, Brigadier General Arthur MacArthur (father of Douglas MacArthur) was not well thought of by the Secretary of War (today known as the Secretary of Defense) William Howard Taft, while a number of members of SFGC were friends of his. Taft would kept MacArthur from going any further in rank and so MacArthur got back at him the only way he could, by forcing his friends to find another place to play their silly game. And so, in 1904, he chose the Presidio to host the largest peacetime war games in the history of the country (up until that time). He ordered that the land on which the folf course was built be used first by the cavalry, then by the artillery and finally by having, as was reported in the March 1st issue of the San FRancisco Chronicle, "the Colored Cavalrymen Reproduce Battle of San Juan on Small Scale."


When he handed the course back to the club it had been so badly damaged, it was nearly impossible to play on it, though the Scotsman and their fellow members gave it their best efforts to do so. They finally saw the light and leased land in Ingleside where they built a new golf course for the club.

[MCirba]

Hoping this doesn't come across as self-promotion, but I'm very proud of both of these pieces.   I'd suggest you read them in their entirety because one has a surprise ending.


Thanks for your indulgence.



Cirba, Mike – Forgotten Foxburg America’s Oldest Golf Club? - Golf Club Atlas


Cirba, Mike – The Maddening Mystery of Dorset Field Club - Golf Club Atlas

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Historians and authors Elmer Nahum and Christian Williams celebrated hickory experiences at Foxburg this weekend.

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