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Steve_ Shaffer

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Liberty National news
« on: July 02, 2020, 12:33:54 PM »


Buried in N.J.’s Budget Cuts: a Break for a Billionaire
A stopgap budget with $4 billion in cuts also includes an opening for private development in state parks, like a long-desired expansion of a golf course into Liberty State Park. Somewhere along the way a one-paragraph clause was quietly inserted.The wording could clear the way for private development in Liberty State Park in Jersey City, N.J., a crown jewel of the park system that has been eyed for decades by developers. Liberty National, an exclusive private golf club where the original initiation fee was about half a million dollars, has been pressing for years to expand into a nearby section of the park.One of the golf course’s owners, Paul B. Fireman, the founder of Reebok who sold his company to Adidas for $3.8 billion, and his family are generous campaign donors, contributing about $420,000 to Democrats and Republicans in New Jersey between 2009 and last year, state records show“A couple of paid lobbyists along with a couple of legislators got in special language for a guy who owns a golf course,” Ms. Weinberg said in an interview.
Read more...
Politics as usual...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/02/nyregion/liberty-state-park-nj-golf.html


https://www.libertynationalgc.com/club/scripts/library/view_document.asp?NS=PUBLIC&DN=HISTORY


https://www.libertynationalgc.com/club/scripts/library/view_document.asp?NS=PG&DN=DESIGN




https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liberty-national-golf-club
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 06:38:30 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

JohnVDB

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2020, 09:08:01 PM »
As much as I love golf, I hate this because there is no need to do it and it is what gives goof a bad name with the public 

Lou_Duran

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2020, 03:49:25 PM »
JVDB,


I am curious, where did you come down on Coul Links?


I know that CL was to be built on privately-owned land whereas the LN desired expansion is on a public park.  The former's application was denied.  The latter is unlikely to get off the ground.


So, the issue appears to be not one of ownership but of use.  Government entities "own" around 40% of America's land mass (the feds some 28%).  Just less than 2/3 of the population in the US lives on 3.5% of the land (Census Bureau), the vast majority who never set foot on "our" national parks.


I can see a scenario where the good people of NJ and the owner of LN could arrive at a win-win arrangement.  Or is punishing "the rich" for existing more important than taking a positive first step toward the financial stability of a state?  Judging by the number of resident Canada geese, mallards, egrets, herons, hawks, vultures, and song birds I see every day at my home course, these wonderful creatures seem to like the rich man's game just fine.


BTW, have you tried pricing a room in Yellowstone or the Grand Tetons?  These are not common folk who lodge there.


And yes, the sausage making that we call the political process/legislating is nauseating.  When was the last time we heard "We have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it"?   

Kalen Braley

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2020, 05:32:44 PM »
Lou,

I'm not sure what you're basing that on.  I've lived here in the Mountain West for nearly 15 years combined and have been to all the major parks, Yellowstone, Tetons, Grand Canyon, Arches, Zion, etc and have stayed in all kinds of hotels of varying quality.

The price structure at hotels inside the parks is not cheap, $150-300 per night in peak season, but due almost entirely to 2 things.
1) Tourists, mostly from overseas, who want the experience of staying on site in a National Park and are willing to pay.
2) Very limited supply of hotel rooms in the Park.

But if you want to find the outrageous/insanely priced stuff its always in a neighboring location, outside the park boundaries, at some swanky resort, (500+ to thousands per night kind of rooms), in addition to the lower end motels and chains in places like Jackson, St. George, Moab, etc.

P.S. I just did a quick search in Grand Tetons National Park and found options available for less than $100 per night..in July, the tippy top of peak season.




Lou_Duran

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2020, 07:09:11 PM »
P.S. I just did a quick search in Grand Tetons National Park and found options available for less than $100 per night..in July, the tippy top of peak season.


I've been to GTNP and Yellowstone a couple of times each.  We're supposed to drive in from Park City on 7/13, but the main lodge (Jackson Lake) advertises a $338-$871 base rate if it was opened (maybe reopens in spring 2021).  The spartan Old Faithful is around $350/night for a decent room.  Please do forward your list of cheapos that are open in the GTNP.  I didn't have any luck when I looked about a month ago.

Craig Sweet

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2020, 12:54:27 AM »
I just spent two nights about 20 miles outside of Yellowstone Park in a cabin on the Madison River. Great fishing by the way..


Two nights total $205.20
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

corey miller

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2020, 11:10:54 AM »



There is no "win/win" in this arrangement.  It stinks, and as a golf architecture website perhaps we can evaluate the claims of Liberty National officials that the "extra space" would lure PGA tour events and increase state revenue. 


How does that work?  Three new holes are that important?


I tend to align with Lou on most things economic but think he is way off the rails on this.


 Also, as expected, the NYT attempts to make this appear as a "bi-partisan" screwing by noting that Mr. Fireman has donated to both Democrats and Republicans but even a cursory reading of the article tells why and how this went down.




Kalen Braley

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2020, 11:25:39 AM »
Lou,

Look up Colter Bay Village.  Smack dab in the middle of the park.  $75 per night if you want to try some modified tent camping, or $250 for a cabin.  Also several other options in the park in that 200-250 price range.

Or there are several hotels under $200 per night in Jackson, right on the edge of the park and only 5 or so miles from the Main Visitors Center.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2020, 11:41:55 AM »
LN made its mistake when it hired Bob "NO, you can't touch our DevEmmet greens here at Leatherstocking" Cupp and Tom "NO, I don't know what goes into a golf course" Kite. There are certainly six or more practicing architects on this DB alone that would have turned in much better work. I doubt that three new holes would improve the golf course.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Lou_Duran

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2020, 11:43:57 AM »
Thanks for the suggestions.  Given the recent flareup with C-19, we're 50/50 on flying and it's too far to drive.


Re: selling park land at LN for three new holes, I don't know the site first-hand, though I've been told that the course is very good, the sights world-class, and that what was there before was dismal.  The scenario I casually envisioned involved an Augusta National/Augusta CC type of transaction- a purchase price of many, many times the value of a small number of acres that have limited use and their loss made up in other ways.


From the report, the way the budget passed was offensive, but, in that respect, it doesn't seem to be that unusual.  Of course, it is up to the locals to correct whatever errors were made, it is public property after all, and perhaps the price is insufficient to overcome the optics and reinforcement of bad habits.  I do believe that for the most part, we get the government we choose and deserve. 




Matt_Cohn

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2020, 01:39:18 PM »
As much as I love golf, I hate this because there is no need to do it and it is what gives goof a bad name with the public


Yeah. I wish they'd just be honest and say "we want this for our private golf club and we're willing to pay a ton of money for it." I doubt anybody buys the argument that the future tax revenue is really the big thing here.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2020, 03:13:27 PM »
As much as I love golf, I hate this because there is no need to do it and it is what gives goof a bad name with the public


Yeah. I wish they'd just be honest and say "we want this for our private golf club and we're willing to pay a ton of money for it." I doubt anybody buys the argument that the future tax revenue is really the big thing here.


You don't think that this is clearly implied?  But what is the base case, the tax revenue generated by a small parcel of park land?  Like selling the rights to build toll roads, a primary motivation is to generate a big pile of cash upfront for the communities involved.  Whatever ancillary revenue is generated from higher utilization is gravy.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2020, 10:21:05 PM »
...
BTW, have you tried pricing a room in Yellowstone or the Grand Tetons?  These are not common folk who lodge there.
...

The common folk stay in the campgrounds. And, if the campgrounds are full, which is common, the rangers can tell them where they might primitive camp in the area.

Methinks you are out of touch with the common man.

Whomever got the legislation to benefit the oligarchs at Liberty National into the state park legislation or budgeting should tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on the rails.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

mike_beene

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2020, 10:37:52 PM »
Lou: It is with great excitement we await "The Confidential Guide to American National Parks". Old Faithful with its stands and the little house where the guy turns on the water should knock it down the rankings. At least El Capitan is still walking only.

John Crowley

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2020, 11:24:41 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions.  Given the recent flareup with C-19, we're 50/50 on flying and it's too far to drive.


Re: selling park land at LN for three new holes, I don't know the site first-hand, though I've been told that the course is very good, the sights world-class, and that what was there before was dismal.  The scenario I casually envisioned involved an Augusta National/Augusta CC type of transaction- a purchase price of many, many times the value of a small number of acres that have limited use and their loss made up in other ways.


From the report, the way the budget passed was offensive, but, in that respect, it doesn't seem to be that unusual.  Of course, it is up to the locals to correct whatever errors were made, it is public property after all, and perhaps the price is insufficient to overcome the optics and reinforcement of bad habits.  I do believe that for the most part, we get the government we choose and deserve.


Right!
“Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” H.L.M. ~1920

Lou_Duran

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2020, 10:35:13 AM »
"Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"  Churchill to the House of Commons (1947)

Bruce Katona

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2020, 11:22:38 AM »
Steve/Lou:


The current rendition of the NYT does not let facts get in the way of a good story; though it certainly journalistically superior to the Washington Post; which is about on pa with the National Enquirer, or to those of you on the east side of the pond, The Mirror, though I don't want to insult The Mirror.


Th hub-bub on LN is a 12 acre land lease on a point of underutilized land at the state park to be used for golf.  NJ has lots of rules regarding land development; at the local, county, state and federal level.  There are people (such as moi) who make a considerable living attempting to navigate this entitlement morass; with the caveat that once you believe you understand the process; especially at the state level; there exist unpublished "white papers" that out line un-adopted policy guidelines to gain certain development entitlements.


NJ does not want to set precedent by leasing state owned land (purchased with Green Acres Open Space Funds) to private entitles like LN to develop golf for private purposes - end of story. This has ZERO to do with common sense, balancing budgets, or an actual realistic use of land - it's NJ politics.


Is there a win-win compromise available? Of course, but that requires common sense and a lot of political muscle, not something a lobbyist can typically do......you'd need to donate significantly to our senior US Senator's (ranked least respected out of all 100 senators by a jury of his peers and acquitted, much like OJ, in a trial for conduct un-becoming an elected official) next legal defense fund.




Peter Pallotta

Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2020, 11:48:48 AM »

John, your HLM quote reminded me of the last scene from "Inherit the Wind", when Mencken continues to cruelly mock Darrow's (defeated and now deceased) adversary, William Jennings Bryan, and Darrow finally says:

"I'm getting damned tired of you. You've never pushed a noun against a verb except to blow something up. Everything is grist for your mill, isn't it? You're like a ghost -- pointing an empty sleeve and smirking at everything that people feel or want or struggle for."

Lou_Duran

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2020, 12:53:45 PM »
Bruce,


My thought when I saw this thread and looked at the aerial was that a long-term lease could serve all parties.  The government gets a chunk of cash upfront and regular lease payments to fund better access for the birdwatchers and maintenance of the sensitive areas.  On the other hand, with our politics being so toxic presently, what progressive politician who would not dare look at a gift horse in the mouth?


This episode reminds me of a brief stay in Orange County, CA just after I retired from commercial real estate in Texas.  Real estate development in Irvine at that time was highly regulated and largely controlled by a five-member board of commissioners.  A mid-rise office building was approved by a vote of 3-2 in the city and the minority sued the other three because the two felt that the $3 Million donated by the developer to the city as a condition of the approval for a new park miles away was insufficient.  I didn't stay around long enough to see how things fell out, but it sure gave me a good understanding of why all types of real estate in SoCal is so astronomically expensive (some office space rates I saw quoted seemed reasonable, until I learned that they were monthly as opposed to annually).


In Los Angeles, an acquaintance who had a highly successful industrial development firm gave me a good primer on doing business in the metropolitan area.  Essentially, he knew all the political decision makers in each jurisdiction, their preferred vendors, the application process, and the expectations involving donating to campaigns and causes.  Sure, it might cost him $500k more in upfront costs to get a deal going in his home turf than, say, in Houston, but all his competitors had to play the same game and the higher costs are just passed on to the consumer.


But the coup de grace was in what he also noted:  that he could go to Houston and build a warehouse from start to finish in a year, whereas if I as an outsider tried to do the same thing in his market, it would take me a minimum of three years, or more than double the time it would take him.  The government, essentially, acts as a barrier to entry favoring large established firms in the area.  As long as there is demand and supply is restricted, he has a huge competitive advantage not because he can provide a superior product at a great price, but because the regulators prevent others from doing so.  I suspect that this is not unique in many large metropolitan areas and a good reason why the jobs of common folks are migrating out.


 

Bruce Katona

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2020, 01:33:18 PM »
Lou:

If it were only as easy as you described.........the unwritten rule just really delay things.......just ask Archie Struthers or Slapper.....they've both lived it for better and worse.

Steve Lapper

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2020, 02:29:45 PM »
Lou:

If it were only as easy as you described.........the unwritten rule just really delay things.......just ask Archie Struthers or Slapper.....they've both lived it for better and worse.




Bruce,


 I was waiting for you to post on this. I love reading many who are either pure theorists, or just unfamilar with the complexity that is land development in NJ.


 It would've been easy to post earlier when the quality of the course was mentioned, but having an occasional invitation to play a round there I'll pass  ;)
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Bruce Katona

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2020, 02:51:40 PM »
Slapper:

As "The Man" who was responsible for trying to figure out how to profitably run two of the greatest "WFT" courses East of the Mississippi - Country Club of the Poconos @ Big Ridge & Bear Brook (Fredon, NJ) commenting on design eccentricities is not something I'll ever do.


I'll simply equate getting permits/entitlements approved here in NJ with folks who work on the left coast with being successful in negotiating an entitlement to construct anything with the California Coastal Commission.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2020, 03:36:02 PM »
Bruce,


That was exactly what the CA developer noted.  By the time an outsider got all his ducks in a row, his investors and financing would be long gone.  It is what happened to the C & C project near Santa Barbara.  After nearly a decade and $3 Million trying to get the project off the ground and with no prospects of the delaying tactics ending, the developers pulled the plug.  As far as I know, the site remains in the poor condition that it was when the oil logistics operations ceased (but surfers traversing the site and a critter or two weren't inconvenienced).


I have great admiration for those who navigate the treacherous waters successfully, somewhat within the legal and ethical boundaries.  I never had the thick skin, balance sheet, connections, and interpersonal skills to attempt it.  Even in north Texas where things have been comparatively "easy", it really isn't. 

Jeff Loh

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2020, 05:40:27 PM »
Just watch "Chinatown."
Very illuminating...

John Crowley

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Re: Liberty National news
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2020, 06:15:32 PM »

John, your HLM quote reminded me of the last scene from "Inherit the Wind", when Mencken continues to cruelly mock Darrow's (defeated and now deceased) adversary, William Jennings Bryan, and Darrow finally says:

"I'm getting damned tired of you. You've never pushed a noun against a verb except to blow something up. Everything is grist for your mill, isn't it? You're like a ghost -- pointing an empty sleeve and smirking at everything that people feel or want or struggle for."
Peter, to be clear, I am 100% for democracy. I was perhaps too cute in quoting H.L.M. in an OT direction.

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