[Thomas Dai]

Are there any famous par-3 template holes that have been deliberately 'copied' or 'near-copied' and play as the green complex of a par-4 or par-5?
Suggestions?
atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have used the Biarritz on short, driveable par 4 holes, figuring the roll up nature of the drive there is now more like the long roll up shot to 220 yard par 3 holes. I haven't, but think it could, be used on reachable par 5 holes.  Don't know of any that have merely been extended at the tee end to change par while keeping the green.
 

[Tyler Kearns]

We built a Biarritz green at the end of a reachable par-5 at Spruce Creek in NW Ontario about 15 years ago. The approach shot for those trying to reach in two is similar to a long par-3, and the running approach making its way through the central valley copies the original intent.


Tyler

[Jeff Schley]

I'd say the 16th at North Berwick "Gate" is a famous par 4 and a Biarritz. Some don't consider it a true Biarritz as it is angled, but I do.

[Greg Smith]

IIRC, the par-4 9th at Kirtland has an approach to a Redan green.

[Tim Martin]

16 at Wexford Plantation is a par four with a Biarritz green.

[Michael Whitaker]

16 at Wexford Plantation is a par four with a Biarritz green.

Yes it is, Mr. Martin! That was my first thought. Well done!

[Michael Whitaker]

During his remodel Brian Silva put a Biarritz green at the end of #7 at Greenville Country Club’s (SC) Riverside Course, a short par five.

[Sven Nilsen]

There are a ton of holes with a redan style green on a par 4.

[JLahrman]

The 16th hole at Morris Williams GC in Austin TX is a dogleg left par-4 with an uphill approach to a Biarritz green. Not sure that green style works that well but it is interesting. A pretty good hole, actually.

[Jon Wiggett]

There are a ton of holes with a redan style green on a par 4.

Of course Redan was originally a par 4 which was then shortened to the par 3 it is today.

[Pat Burke]

It’s been a very long time but is there a par four on the back nine at Forsgate with at least a semi green like this??


I’m really not sure but seem to remember my dad playing to a hole in the front of a green like this??

[Steve Lapper]

Perhaps the finest of examples would be the 13th hole at Somerset Hills.


It is a 393-415yd Par 4 with a pure Biarritz green replete with a Principal's Nose bunker 70yds short of the green (wish it was better centered and closer to the green).


AWT's brilliant experiment with templates at SHCC is on full display here.

[Tom_Doak]

Tillinghast also extended Raynor's Biarritz at CC of Fairfield into a par-4 when he redesigned it, IIRC.


The Loop (where I played yesterday) 😊 has two Biarritz-style greens, set up so that whether you play the Red course or the Black, you play into one of them lengthwise as a par-4 (7 Red or 16 Black), and the other side-on (par-4 Red 11th) or diagonally (par-5 Red 2nd).


I've also got a Redanish green (4 Red) that you play into the back left low side of for a very long par-4 (14 Black).

[Adam G]

The third at Boston Golf Club is an interesting reverse redan par 4.


Hanse uses the Redan green to give the player the option of taking a risk off the tee in order to dramatically improve the angle in to the green. In particular, the tee shot is over the shoulder of a hill on the left side of the fairway with a large bunker set into the crest. Challenging the bunker and fescue down the left not only shortens the hole as the tee shot kicks forward, but also improves the angle into the reverse Redan green. A safe tee shot right of the bunker catches the side of the hill and kicks further to the right, leaving a longer approach from a worse angle that is more typical of a reverse Redan. The width and slope of the fairway mean that the difference in approach angle can be quite dramatic given how safely one plays with the tee ball. All in all a neat hole.

[Bret Lawrence]

Macdonald, Raynor and Banks made quite a few two-shot Redans (Yale’s 8th is a good example) two-shot reverse Redans (1st at Hotchkiss, 12 at Fishers Island, 1st at Tamarack)


They built a few two-shot holes with Eden greens as well.  I believe they had a 300 yard Eden hole on the original Sleepy Hollow design.  They also built a hole called: “Hill to Carry then St. Andrews 11th” at Ocean Links.  Neither of these holes still exist.


I have played a few of their Par 4’s with a horseshoe or thumbprint in the green, but it doesn’t include the Short bunkering.  I think Yeamans 9th hole and one of the holes at Brookville.  I’m not sure how original these greens are though.


The 10th hole at CC of Fairfield is a Par 5 today with the old Biarritz green in the middle of the fairway. It’s probably the first Biarritz to be mowed “all fairway” 

[Sean_A]

I always thought a Biarritz green would be more in interesting as a par 4 where the angle in has to be earned. I have never come across an example. I imagine they would be extremely rare.

I wish 16 at N Berwick did have more room right where a better angle could be earned.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Which came first the ‘Biarritz’ at Biarritz or the 16th at N. Berwick?
Atb

[Jim Sherma]

The 12th at Saucon Valley CC - Old Course is a Biarritz green. Originally a par three it was converted to a dogleg four at some point. I believe it was when Maxwell was doing some revisions but not sure.

I always thought a Biarritz green would be more in interesting as a par 4 where the angle in has to be earned. I have never come across an example. I imagine they would be extremely rare.

I wish 16 at N Berwick did have more room right where a better angle could be earned.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

I always thought a Biarritz green would be more in interesting as a par 4 where the angle in has to be earned. I have never come across an example.

The Loop has two different ones - one for each direction of play!

[Sean_A]

Which came first the ‘Biarritz’ at Biarritz or the 16th at N. Berwick?
Atb

I don't know.  Hutchinson's British Golf Links was published in 1897(?) and it suggests at least two plateaux existed when he wrote "lesser plateau".  I don't know when both plateaux became part the green or which was considered the lesser plateaux.  I wouldn't be surprised to find that CB Mac's Biarritz was 1st and I wouldn't be surprised to find that he really got the idea by seeing NB.  There was so much press back and forth that anybody who cared to know would have known what a B green was.   

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

I always thought a Biarritz green would be more in interesting as a par 4 where the angle in has to be earned. I have never come across an example. I imagine they would be extremely rare.

I wish 16 at N Berwick did have more room right where a better angle could be earned.

Ciao

From recollection I am not sure being further right would be an advantage. The green has so little depth that it would make an incredibly narrow target to hit and combining that with the diagonal nature of the dip it seems to me it would take a miracle shot to be able to run a ball through it and stay on the back plateau. My feeling is that the green is easier approaching from the left side but as I have never looked at right side option I can imagine you might have a point Sean.

[Sean_A]

Well, you have to make the walk of OOB shame to see the hole from the right. 

I am not sure coming in from the right would always make sense, but to have the fairway twice as wide would present an interesting option.

Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

Perhaps OT, but I got to thinking and reviewing some of my old greens.  I also have a sideways Biarritz on a par 4, and in today's game, wondering if sideways doesn't make more sense than back to front?


I have also done partial Biarritz, with a 2-3 feet deep valley going 1/3-1/2 way into the green, leaving cup space all around.  It sort of creates the toilet bowl /seat effect without requiring a "putt round the corner" as when a bunker is stuck in the middle of the inside curve.  I think Nicklaus used to call those "collector cusps" which would suck an indifferent shot right off the green.


Things going partially across the green create a variety of shots depending on pin position, and usually look more natural than a straight shelf, valley or whatever cutting through the green, usually at about 90 degree angle. 


In the end, I think it's one of those things, that while neat, really doesn't work out as well as other concepts, other than to be a conversation piece green on the course.

[Britt Rife]

Is it me, or does the 2nd at Oakmont put you in mind of a par 4 Eden?  The bunker positioning and green entry is similar (it even has a "river" bunker in the back), but most notable is the frightening back to front slope of the green.

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