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mike_malone

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What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« on: September 04, 2019, 01:43:25 PM »
The variety of Dunbar was exhilarating.
AKA Mayday

Tim Gallant

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2019, 02:03:01 PM »
Mike,


I wrote fairly extensively on Muirfield a month or two ago, and the posts can be found here:


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65244.msg1608376/topicseen.html#msg1608376


In my mind, Muirfield is one of the best golf courses in the world, and the more I play it, the more that view gets reaffirmed. If you love golf course architecture, that would be a place I would recommend studying as the subtlety is astonishing.


Dunbar is great, and you're right, it is exhilarating due to its location - but the questions asked aren't as stimulating as those at Muirfield.


PS - Hope you had fun with the roadrunner at Kilspindie :) He said he had a great time with you'll!

Tom_Doak

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2019, 04:10:56 PM »
Mike:


I do believe that variety is one of the indicators of an excellent golf course.  Dunbar has a lot of variety in terms of setting for its golf holes, though I'm not sure the actual design features show as much range.


Muirfield gets points from most people not just because it's a championship site, and very exclusive, but because it has so many superlative elements to it.  The routing is famous for varying the direction of play.  The bunkering is unparalleled in terms of shaping.  The three par-5 holes are possibly the finest on the planet.  Those kinds of memorable moments put the exclamation point on most people's memories.

mike_malone

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2019, 05:09:22 PM »
 As we played Muirfield yesterday we discussed what makes these top 25 courses. The lack of quirk was mentioned as a feature of top courses and a scale.
 I was reminded of Royal St. George’s as I played Muirfield.


Tim,


What are questions asked?
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2019, 05:12:34 PM »
Tom,


I’m in shock at your statement about the par fives. You need to get around more!
AKA Mayday

Peter Pallotta

Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2019, 05:48:52 PM »
You gents must’ve played a heck of lot of top-ranked golf courses (and I know you have) if ‘lack of quirk’ is viewed as a failing/criticism. I’d trade you all the quirkiest golf holes in the world combined for just five or six great ones, a couple of good Par 5s, and an elegant routing.

Sean_A

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2019, 05:57:07 PM »
Mayday

I would say the superior routing is by far the biggest reason Muirfield is better than Dunbar. Where Muirfield really falls down is the lack of dynamic terrain and consequently the use of bunkers as the overwhelming source of interest. Essentially this really means the golf feels very codified or clinical. When a course needs 150 bunkers to get its message across I think to some degree this negates the brilliance of the routing.

Pietro

I will take cool funk over a great deal of great holes most days of the week. Greatness is over - rated.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 05:59:15 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

mike_malone

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2019, 06:28:19 PM »
 I’m trying to draw out some specifics on what makes “ great”. I prefer some quirk so that may be why I miss the supposed greatness of some courses. Beyond the lack of quirk or not being surprised the large scale that lends itself to championship golf was another. History and reputation are also aspects of these top courses.


 Dornoch, RSG, Muirfield are way behind Pine Valley and Oakmont for me. Those two have relentless interest for me. I don’t feel like I just played a very similar hole 20 minutes ago.


I remember the first time I played Merion and being in the unairconditioned grill room after playing 10 wedges to the greens in regulation. I wondered what all the fuss was about.

AKA Mayday

jeffwarne

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2019, 08:26:37 PM »
Where Muirfield really falls down is the lack of dynamic terrain and consequently the use of bunkers as the overwhelming source of interest. Essentially this really means the golf feels very codified or clinical. When a course needs 150 bunkers to get its message across I think to some degree this negates the brilliance of the routing.

Pietro

I will take cool funk over a great deal of great holes most days of the week. Greatness is over - rated.

Ciao


Ditto.
I felt the "greatness" of Muirfield was masked by the search for balls...


Dunbar was exhilarating and would return there, NB and Kilspindie in a minute
Muirfield?a box ticked

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JESII

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2019, 09:26:01 PM »

I remember the first time I played Merion and being in the unairconditioned grill room after playing 10 wedges to the greens in regulation. I wondered what all the fuss was about.






Ahh...but none of those wedges were remotely similar to another...which is part or the absolute genius.




Otherwise...isn't this thread what it's all about for those of us on here?




I am very familiar with Pine Valley, and to me it is the greatest course in the world, hands down...but I assume that statement is true for less than 10% of golfers by the way I define greatest.

James Brown

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2019, 09:37:21 PM »
I’m trying to draw out some specifics on what makes “ great”. I prefer some quirk so that may be why I miss the supposed greatness of some courses. Beyond the lack of quirk or not being surprised the large scale that lends itself to championship golf was another. History and reputation are also aspects of these top courses.


 Dornoch, RSG, Muirfield are way behind Pine Valley and Oakmont for me. Those two have relentless interest for me. I don’t feel like I just played a very similar hole 20 minutes ago.


I remember the first time I played Merion and being in the unairconditioned grill room after playing 10 wedges to the greens in regulation. I wondered what all the fuss was about.


I played Dunbar for the first time last year and really liked the setting.  A few of the hole are really interesting.  But the bunkering is pretty lackluster and the greens are interesting in places but not all that interesting.  I also found that while a few holes required choices from the tee or into the green, most did not.


Muirfield Requires thinking on every shot.  All those bunkers force you to consider a whole lot of factors relative to the wind and angles and many other factors. 


Dunbar seemed to me that on a second playing it would have little mystery.  Murifield seems like you could play it forever and never learn everything it has to teach you. 


That is my marker for a truly great course, 

Bill Raffo

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2019, 12:17:02 AM »
Muirfield exposes and penalizes slight weaknesses in your ability to drive the golf ball while Dunbar almost asks you to hit it as hard and as left as you can. Two different world's. How delightful to go to Dunbar and not have to be precise! How engaging to go to Muirfield and try to spin the ball against whatever the prevailing wind is on any given hole and thread and bounce it between the best strategic bunkering in golf?

Muirfield, like all great courses, doesn't have easy holes or impossible holes. All are stiff, difficult tests but all are gettable.  There's no hiding. You either hit it crisply or you get abused.

Quick story:  Had never broken 80 there, but had a number of 81's and 82's. Came to the 18th needing par for 79. Hit it in the bunker right off the tee. Second shot bounced off the face and back at me, in the bunker. I looked up at the sky and said to the golf Gods, out loud, "Why won't you let me have this?" Splashed out. Hit a 255 yard three wood that bounded 75 yards on the ground to two feet and tapped in for 79.

Golf Gods are a real thing in Scotland.


Tom_Doak

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2019, 02:23:30 AM »
Bill Raffo:


If you really needed a par at the last for 79, then how did a five get you there?

Daryl David

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2019, 04:13:27 AM »
Bill Raffo:


If you really needed a par at the last for 79, then how did a five get you there?


Bill must have started the round on #10. My last few mornings rounds there we were sent off the back.

mike_malone

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2019, 04:41:43 AM »
There seems to be emerging a difference for better players in considering greatness. Golf is for the average player and approaches to the green are our yardstick for evaluating courses.
AKA Mayday

JESII

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2019, 05:37:22 AM »
“For the average player”???


Is this to say that as you improve, golf is no longer for you?


Come on Mayday...make your case for Dunbar. Does variety alone make a course great?

Tim Gallant

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2019, 06:42:28 AM »
  Mike,


In my mind, the questions asked have not only to do with shot variety, but they are more internal questions, which is what great courses ask. They create doubt, they question your game as a golfer to stay within the limits of your ability and tempt you to take risks that are not statistically probably in most instances.





Where Muirfield shines is in its ability to question a players pride. I’ll give you one example  the 15th hole. To me, this is one of the stronger holes on the property. Off the tee, players are met with three diagonal bunkers that slowly get further away from the tee the more a player tries to chew off. Depending on the wind, players must decide how much they want to take on, and are nervous to be too cautious as it will likely mean this meaty par-4 turns into a 5 in the prevailing wind.


But! If players play too cautiously, they then need to contemplate whether they are to take on the narrows bunkering, which is perfectly placed well short of the green. In the prevailing wind, players have to decide how much to take off the tee, specifically so they could make an attempt at carrying the narrows bunkers. If they decide the risk is not worth the reward, there is ample space short of the narrows that will allow the hole to be played as a 3-shotter, but at a price! They will still be left with a 100 yard shot in the wind to a sloping green. 6 suddenly comes into the equation, whereas if they carry the bunker, even if they don’t reach the green they have a much easier route to a 5.


Where Muirfield maybe shines better than most is that the hole is just as good downwind! Downwind, the players really need to press up the left side if they are to avoid the right fairway bunker, which is perfectly placed. For those becoming too aggressive, there is a hungry bunker on the left that awaits players as well.


The importance of the tee shot is not only to avoid the bunker, but to have a short iron into the green. Because, downwind, you really need to challenge the narrow bunkers to allow the ball to stop on the green. If you play it too long, the firm green will not hold the golf ball, and it will end up in the well placed green side bunker on the back left or right.


For those players that play safe to the middle of the green, they can either use the spine to their advantage, or watch as they will be faced with a tricky 2-putt.


I believe that every hole at Muirfield offers the same type of decisions as the 15th. The issue, which you’ve hit on, is that the average golfer doesn’t play golf as a thinking sport. They are happy to be spoon-fed simple golf with spectacular views. To steal a friend’s quote of another course - Muirfield is like playing chess, whereas Dunbar would be like playing checkers.


On the discussion of quirk, I believe that quirk in itself does not make great golf. Quirk can enhance the strategic / heroic merits of a course. As an example, the 13th at North Berwick is quirky because of the wall, but it’s great because of the bunker placement and green shape. Hitting over a wall is fun, but only if the challenge is stimulating. To illustrate this point, players hit over a wall on the 3rd hole as well, but nobody talks about that much because the strategy of the hole is less nuanced than that of the 13th.


Quirk is an easy thing for the masses to identify as ‘fun’ and therefore, they believe it must equate to greatness - and in some cases, that is true! But not all quirk is great, just like not all tough courses are penal.


Some of my favourite courses have lots of ‘quirk’ and I count them as some of the best courses in the world (NB, Prestwick, Machrihanish, Brancaster, etc), but even with those courses, Muirfield doesn’t have a hole as weak as the weakest at those places.

mike_malone

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2019, 09:45:27 AM »
 I posted my topic around the 14th hole at Dunbar and will admit the finish is drab. But the middle was just an amusement park that grabbed me.
My partner commented on the sand that looked like oatmeal and played nicely.


The combination of the walls , the rumpled fairways, the old buildings and the sea all made for a pleasant surprise.


Another factor is the hype of a top course versus the low expectations that can be exceeded.
Finally there is the cost. When one course is 10% of another it gets my attention.
AKA Mayday

Bill Raffo

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2019, 02:28:35 PM »
Bill Raffo:


If you really needed a par at the last for 79, then how did a five get you there?


Bill must have started the round on #10. My last few mornings rounds there we were sent off the back.


Yes, thank you. I should have mentioned that. 


Dunbar is a great challenge when the wind is with you going out. You inevitably shoot a good number but know its going to be a major grind getting in. A couple of those par fours feel like they're 600 yards long.  The lag putting always seems to be a little more difficult there but maybe that's because we always play it at the end of the trip, after a few pub nights.


[size=78%]   [/size]
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 02:48:33 PM by Bill Raffo »

Scott Macpherson

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2019, 07:35:24 AM »
Hi,


I am part of a golfing society that has the fortune of playing Muirfield reasonably regularly. My familiarity with the course has confirmed two things:


1. How clever and engaging the course routing is
2. How, with every round I play, the less I know of the intricacies of the place.


Some of the lines to success are so fine, that one yard left or right has a brilliant shot end up in a bunker.


The varying wind speed and direction can also fox a golfer at anytime during a round because of the circular nature of the two nines. Because of this, the elite skills of controlling ball flight and spin rates is a valuable tool to possess, and one that makes the course adept at sorting out the good from the great golfers.


The par 3s are a real test – oddly, they are all uphill (perhaps not the 4th, depending on tee and hole position) but very different challenges.


Holes 13-16 is a super test of golf, with 17 and 18 an exciting finish.


There are certainly rewards for hitting tee shots to certain sides of the fairway and approach shots to certain parts of the green, and so while know there is no such thing and as a perfect course for everyone, for those that like links golf, this course is about as close to it as you get.


Scott
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 04:21:32 PM by Scott Macpherson »

mike_malone

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2019, 09:47:37 AM »
Scott helps me realize the low level of my links knowledge. The wind, the turf, the shots needed are all something an American parkland player like me needs to appreciate.
After a week over there my knowledge gets acceptable just as I’m ready to leave.


I can see why Dunbar with its more pronounced features is attractive to me. 
AKA Mayday

Bernie Bell

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2019, 09:59:50 AM »
Isn't this (below) what makes Muirfield a "great" course?  But "better" than Dunbar begs the question . . . for what?  Better for separating the good from the great, sure, if that's what you're after.


"Because of this, the elite skills of controlling ball flight and spin rates is a valuable tool to possess, and one that makes the course adept at sorting out the good from the great golfers."

Scott Macpherson

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2019, 04:31:26 PM »
Hi Bernie,


Your question is a good one in that it brings in a number of other considerations to separate Muirfield from other courses. I.e. having trajectory and spin control are also valuable skills at Dunbar, but perhaps once you consider the routing, unified theme, history, length, par etc, at Muirfield it distances itself from other courses – particularly for hosting major tournaments. This reality does not detract from the interest at Dunbar – a very fine links with some testing holes and seaside views – but does separate it.


Scott

Sean_A

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2019, 03:28:38 AM »
Hi Bernie,

Your question is a good one in that it brings in a number of other considerations to separate Muirfield from other courses. I.e. having trajectory and spin control are also valuable skills at Dunbar, but perhaps once you consider the routing, unified theme, history, length, par etc, at Muirfield it distances itself from other courses – particularly for hosting major tournaments. This reality does not detract from the interest at Dunbar – a very fine links with some testing holes and seaside views – but does separate it.

Scott

Hence it is easy to acknowledge Muirfield as the better course, but prefer Dunbar.

Greatness is over - rated.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bernie Bell

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Re: What makes Muirfield a better course than Dunbar for example?
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2019, 07:01:37 AM »
Indeed.  I’ve more interest in the converse question.  Why do you or I prefer x to y, when y is the “better” course? 

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