[Joel_Stewart]

I'm trying to get Gib Papazian to consider a second edition of The Evangelist. Since the original edition came out in 2002, is there enough new material to warrant a revised book?


Restoration work at The Creek Club and Sleepy Hollow as an example could be discussed.


What other material could be added?

[Anthony Gholz]

Mountain Lake has been considerably renovated/restored

[Buck Wolter]

Keep us posted -- my old confidential guide is only worth $100 now same as the new ones.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Keep us posted -- my old confidential guide is only worth $100 now same as the new ones.

Pretty sure this question will divide along the lines of haves/have nots of the original book.


As a have not, fire the presses up immediately.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Would it be a revised edition? Who would revise it?

[Pete Lavallee]

Wasn’t there originally going to be a second book covering Seth Raynor?  Surely there must be a lot of material laying in wait somewhere that could be put into another volume?

[Joel_Stewart]

Would it be a revised edition? Who would revise it?

Gib Papazian was the co author with George.  He would ask permission from George's family as well.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I haven’t got the original but if there were to be a second addition, some updated history of the Biarritz could be included. If I recall, the book attributes the template to the chasm hole.

[Tom_Doak]

I haven’t got the original but if there were to be a second addition, some updated history of the Biarritz could be included. If I recall, the book attributes the template to the chasm hole.

That's true.  Generally though, the book is supposed to be about Macdonald and his work, not the designers who have restored it, so I don't understand why any recent work is relevant.


As to a Raynor book, George left a lot of pieces for us, but it would be a lot of work for someone to pick up all the pieces and turn it into a book, and that hasn't happened yet.  I might get there someday, but it's not like I'm short of things to do these days! 😅

[corey miller]

I agree with Tom.  The Macdonald book is a complete work and if anyone ever picks up the Raynor project we will hope that that will become a complete work.


Sleepy Hollow was far from a restoration and George Bahto only wanted to honor Macdonald so the only real benefit to even writing about the project would be to highlight the process driven aspects that so often get fouled up by well meaning people.  That was not going to happen with Bahto around. 


After spending so much time with Bahto, I would be actually more interested in his story from Bloomfield marbles champ, to pro baseball player, to ultimate dry cleaner, to hanging with all the golf luminaries.

[Lou_Duran]

Depends on what the meaning of the word "worthwhile" is.


For a publisher, is it financially viable?


For a retail gofer, does more stuff on an ODG matter?


For those interested in golf during a very important time in its history, without a doubt.


George told me a year or so before passing that the rough draft of the manuscript for Vol. 2 was essentially complete.  It required Gib's considerable (like in a lot) editing, formatting, and more photographs and artwork.  He was excited about it, noting that it went beyond Raynor into Banks (I got the impression that he had surplus material).


Incidentally, I gave Vol. 1 to my host at Shinnecock many years ago.  He wrote back that he hadn't heard of the book, didn't really know much about the history of CBM, NGLA next door which he had played several times, or his own golf course.  He was extremely grateful and I hope that the book opened up a new avenue of enjoyment of golf for him.  I have no idea how many books need to be sold at the going price to break-even, but perhaps Vol. 2 can be marketed to the thousands of members of Raynor and Banks courses.     

[Joel_Stewart]

I agree with Tom.  The Macdonald book is a complete work and if anyone ever picks up the Raynor project we will hope that that will become a complete work.

I'm told that there is new information. CBM apparently redesigned the first 9 at Exmoor which wasn't discovered until about 5 years ago.  Exmoor was supposed to be Chicago Golf Club but in the end he didn't like the wind off the lake so he went to Wheaton.


Furthermore, for all the people who don't have access to the book or understand the history it could be a valuable resource.


The restoration work IMHO should be highlighted (or discussed) since it now highlights the greatness of CBM.


 

[David_Tepper]

Out of curiosity, how many copies of the 1st edition were printed and sold?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

There a lot of mistakes in the first edition that need to be corrected if there is to be a second edition.

[John Foley]

Rather than a second edition why not a second book on Raynor & Banks?? I thought at one time the Evangelist was the first of a planned triad to include an NGLA history (is this now irrelevant w/ the Millard book?) and a Raynor book?


Either way - further dissemination of all the work George did would be a fantastic idea.

[Joel_Stewart]

There a lot of mistakes in the first edition that need to be corrected if there is to be a second edition.

That I don't know about.


I did find my book over the weekend which I thought had been lost. Had a smile when I saw George had inscribed and signed it.


I was surprised that George omitted all information about Downers Grove which was CBMs first golf course. It still exists as a 9 hole course. Even if the course was an experiment and failed, it seems that it's historic and should be mentioned.


I'm perplexed why Sleepy Hollow only had two pictures, both of which are the clubhouse.  St. Louis CC has two photos as well?

[Jeff Schley]

I was surprised that George omitted all information about Downers Grove which was CBMs first golf course. It still exists as a 9 hole course. Even if the course was an experiment and failed, it seems that it's historic and should be mentioned.

That is an omission as there are I believe 5 original holes still left.  Although the name Chicago Golf Club moved from that site just a couple years after it's creation, IMO who cares that the name changed and well-heeled members moved to Wheaton, preserve the course's DNA.

[corey miller]

Does someone want to take over the project of correcting the mistakes/omissions of the first edition of the book? 


It is a complete work, perhaps another historian can do their own book and correct George where needed?


as for Sleepy Hollow and two pictures and few pages...It was deserved...the course had been ruined by many people over many years and only through people like George (post published book) was the course even salvageable. 


Does anyone really want to read a first hand account of the many days George (and Gil) spent walking the course trying to piece something together that would honor CBM and classic architecture?   Newsflash...he ate a hot dog every day at the half-way house.

Btw..other than the requisite aerials from the county...very few pictures existed of the original Sleepy Hollow holes.  As can be expected #16 but few others. 

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

You would have to pay someone to revise the book. There is a lot of work to be done.


How can you call Sleepy a Macdonald course when four holes are lost and Tillinghast totally redesigned the place? How is it no considered a Tillinghast course? If the roles were reversed, I'd consider it a Macdonald layout.

[Nigel Islam]

Does someone want to take over the project of correcting the mistakes/omissions of the first edition of the book? 


It is a complete work, perhaps another historian can do their own book and correct George where needed?


as for Sleepy Hollow and two pictures and few pages...It was deserved...the course had been ruined by many people over many years and only through people like George (post published book) was the course even salvageable. 


Does anyone really want to read a first hand account of the many days George (and Gil) spent walking the course trying to piece something together that would honor CBM and classic architecture?   Newsflash...he ate a hot dog every day at the half-way house.

Btw..other than the requisite aerials from the county...very few pictures existed of the original Sleepy Hollow holes.  As can be expected #16 but few others.

Unfortunately as Anthony alluded to there are some inaccuracies in The Evangelist of Golf. There are also inaccuracies in Cornish and Whitten. Years ago, Steve Schaffer and Phil Young discovered the true pedigree of North Shore CC. There are countless examples. I think any publication that would correct such inaccuracies would have to be an interesting, stand alone book rather than something just piling on mistakes others once had reason to believe were true at the time.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I dusted off my copy, sans George’s signature, and think a second edition with additional courses might be interesting. I still wonder how George picked the courses he decided to include, like Gibson Island Club, which only has nine very rudimentary holes left.

[Nigel Islam]

George did all the known MacDonald courses. Gibson is one of those.

[Tom Allen]

Sign me up ASAP (and yes, the reason is I am one of the have-nots of the first edition). 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I would be happy to proofread (for grammatical, spelling, etc. mistakes, not historical accuracy) for the low low payment of a copy of the book when done and, if I find enough errors to warrant it, my name under "editing help" or some title in small print somewhere. And that's highly negotiable.

I'd love to see a Raynor book, too. Unless I'm very badly misreading things.

[Joel_Stewart]

George did all the known MacDonald courses. Gibson is one of those.

If this is true, why did he leave out Downers Grove?


https://thefriedegg.com/downers-grove-golf-club/

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