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Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
What about all the hype that the flagstick is such a big advantage?  I would think that greens running fast the flagstick in would be an advantage and the US Open certainly has fast greens.
Why aren't they keeping the flagstick in? 
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2019, 07:30:59 AM »
Because it can’t help a good putt.

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2019, 07:38:38 AM »
My guess is these pins are made of steel vs fiberglass most weeks on tour.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2019, 08:26:07 AM »
I wish it were due to the players #dignity but I doubt that is the reason.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2019, 09:34:34 AM »
Because it can’t help a good putt.


bingo
and CAN hurt a good putt


a good trend
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2019, 10:26:16 AM »
Bryson addressed this the very first time he was interviewed on the topic. He indicated that USGA flagsticks are steel, and repel balls with greater frequency than fiberglass (PGA Tour) ones. This may also be the case for R&A ones, but I don't recall.


So much news to keep up with these day. I cannot believe I recollect this. Glad to help clear up the mystery.


rm
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Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2019, 11:19:53 AM »
I had my first decent putt today that would undoubtedly have dropped with the pin out, get repelled and stay out.
Cave Nil Vino

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2019, 11:26:20 AM »
The science behind why the flagstick should be pulled 99.9 percent of the time





https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 11:28:56 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2019, 12:30:42 PM »
The science behind why the flagstick should be pulled 99.9 percent of the time
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

A wretched, horrible study. Already discussed a few times. Look at the chart for 10'10" (0 out of 12), then look at the chart for 10'11" (17 out of 30). The study makes no sense, and people aren't hitting the ball 10-13 by the hole with much regularity.

Like I've said, for putts where you're going to control the speed to within about 3', take the flagstick out. The greens are so small at Pebble Beach, people don't often have long putts, so they're taking it out with more frequency. Plus they're heavier, metal flagsticks.

You have seen a LOT of chip-ins and pitch-ins and hole-outs, too, and the flagstick has certainly helped many of those.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2019, 02:13:14 PM »
The science behind why the flagstick should be pulled 99.9 percent of the time
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

A wretched, horrible study. Already discussed a few times. Look at the chart for 10'10" (0 out of 12), then look at the chart for 10'11" (17 out of 30). The study makes no sense, and people aren't hitting the ball 10-13 by the hole with much regularity.

Like I've said, for putts where you're going to control the speed to within about 3', take the flagstick out. The greens are so small at Pebble Beach, people don't often have long putts, so they're taking it out with more frequency. Plus they're heavier, metal flagsticks.

You have seen a LOT of chip-ins and pitch-ins and hole-outs, too, and the flagstick has certainly helped many of those.


The images are not well labeled, but here's a video showing how the results were produced. [size=78%]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Rs22gAkeg[/size]


Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2019, 03:32:12 PM »
I’m leaving it in on putts 20’ and over. I think it helps with depth perception.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2019, 03:35:14 PM »
The images are not well labeled, but here's a video showing how the results were produced. [size=78%]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Rs22gAkeg[/size]
Thanks, Alex. I'd seen that video, but it's good for others to view it.

I just wanted to note that the putt Woodland made on the 9th (his last hole) last night was made with the flagstick in. Of course it was about 40-50 feet or so.  :)


I’m leaving it in on putts 20’ and over. I think it helps with depth perception.

Also that, yes. I recommended having the flagstick tended outside of about 25' prior to 2019 for the same reason(s).
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2019, 05:34:00 PM »
The flagsticks at my course look the same, so I'm assuming they are. They are thicker at the bottom. I had two really good putts that should have gone in get repelled by the flagstick. So, I've always taken it out ever since.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2019, 04:25:08 AM »
Leaving the flagstick in for the entire group saves time. I think this is way more significant than the occasional outlier putt. You win some, you lose some, so I don't think scores are going to be affected on average. Playing time, however, is going to be shortened any day.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Eric Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2019, 11:56:59 AM »
The science behind why the flagstick should be pulled 99.9 percent of the time
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

A wretched, horrible study. Already discussed a few times. Look at the chart for 10'10" (0 out of 12), then look at the chart for 10'11" (17 out of 30). The study makes no sense, and people aren't hitting the ball 10-13 by the hole with much regularity.

Like I've said, for putts where you're going to control the speed to within about 3', take the flagstick out. The greens are so small at Pebble Beach, people don't often have long putts, so they're taking it out with more frequency. Plus they're heavier, metal flagsticks.

You have seen a LOT of chip-ins and pitch-ins and hole-outs, too, and the flagstick has certainly helped many of those.

+1

In addition, the testing by mygolfspy shows you will make more putts with flag in than with flag out.
The missed putts stay closer also.   
I leave them in for all putts and my putts / 18 holes has dropped by 2 strokes.
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2019, 12:11:38 PM »
 
"I leave them in for all putts and my putts / 18 holes has dropped by 2 strokes."
Quote from Bob Montle above



Let's imagine that were even remotely true for other golfers.


The USGA went to great lengths and much disruption to ban certain grooves and anchoring a putter, and bastardizes great classic courses to "protect par".
All in search of ensuring "skill" is the separating factor between golfers.


why on earth would they pass a rule going the other way?
(I have a theory but I've shared my disdain enough)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 12:14:41 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2019, 12:47:18 PM »
First of all, remember that every player that you are seeing when you watch the pros has spent his entire life putting with the flag out on the vast majority of the thousands and thousands of putts they've hit.  They are used to it, and change comes slowly in golf and especially on Tour.  Secondly, remember that their speed control is nearly flawless, and there just isn't much way the stick is going to help them.  And I believe that I did see players at Pebble leaving the stick in on long putts that in the past would have been tended; Woodland's chip on the green on Sunday is an interesting example.


As to the studies done so far, all test the same thing, I think, which is the effect of the stick on a rolling ball.  What I don't think you can test is the effect of the VISUAL element of a smaller, more specific target on effect putting by non-Tour players.  When you teach free throw shooting to basketball players, you teach them to focus on a VERY specific point on the rim, rather than the general area of the basket; most say the back of the rim.  Smaller target, smaller misses. It's the same thing with full swings in golf, using an intermediate point or a tree in the background, etc.; alignment and focus get better as the target gets smaller.  I see no reason to believe that putting will prove to be any different.

A personal story:  My regular group and I fell into the habit of leaving the pin in while putting from the beginning of the year, and I've continued that into tournaments.  Yesterday I played a local senior tournament at a (very) public course, and all but a couple of the flagsticks were badly tilted; I wasn't sure if it was because the holes were too deep, or the bottom of the flag was slightly the wrong size, but all of them were leaning, so I putted with them out in most cases. 


And I putted horribly on shorter putts with the pin out.  I overplayed the break all day; consistently ran the ball over the high edge of the hole.  What is usually a strength of mine in competitive rounds quite literally cost me the tournament.  That's a VERY small sample size, but really made me scratch my head about the visual element of all of this.

So maybe forget about whether or not the pin helps or hurts a rolling ball; I suspect studies will show both to be true, depending on how the study is set up.  And assume that pace of play in casual rounds gets better.  That leaves the visual element as the wild card, and while I don't know how that can be studied, I have a feeling that it's a big deal.


"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2019, 01:25:38 PM »
First of all, remember that every player that you are seeing when you watch the pros has spent his entire life putting with the flag out on the vast majority of the thousands and thousands of putts they've hit.  They are used to it, and change comes slowly in golf and especially on Tour.  Secondly, remember that their speed control is nearly flawless, and there just isn't much way the stick is going to help them.  And I believe that I did see players at Pebble leaving the stick in on long putts that in the past would have been tended; Woodland's chip on the green on Sunday is an interesting example.


As to the studies done so far, all test the same thing, I think, which is the effect of the stick on a rolling ball.  What I don't think you can test is the effect of the VISUAL element of a smaller, more specific target on effect putting by non-Tour players.  When you teach free throw shooting to basketball players, you teach them to focus on a VERY specific point on the rim, rather than the general area of the basket; most say the back of the rim.  Smaller target, smaller misses. It's the same thing with full swings in golf, using an intermediate point or a tree in the background, etc.; alignment and focus get better as the target gets smaller.  I see no reason to believe that putting will prove to be any different.

A personal story:  My regular group and I fell into the habit of leaving the pin in while putting from the beginning of the year, and I've continued that into tournaments.  Yesterday I played a local senior tournament at a (very) public course, and all but a couple of the flagsticks were badly tilted; I wasn't sure if it was because the holes were too deep, or the bottom of the flag was slightly the wrong size, but all of them were leaning, so I putted with them out in most cases. 


And I putted horribly on shorter putts with the pin out.  I overplayed the break all day; consistently ran the ball over the high edge of the hole.  What is usually a strength of mine in competitive rounds quite literally cost me the tournament.  That's a VERY small sample size, but really made me scratch my head about the visual element of all of this.

So maybe forget about whether or not the pin helps or hurts a rolling ball; I suspect studies will show both to be true, depending on how the study is set up.  And assume that pace of play in casual rounds gets better.  That leaves the visual element as the wild card, and while I don't know how that can be studied, I have a feeling that it's a big deal.


+1


I take the pin out for chip shots around the green all the time - I do it because I know it helps me play with good speed in mind. I think also that whether or not you believe there is a benefit from leaving the pin in, the vast vast majority of benefit comes from hitting the pin when a shot has too much speed.


If taking the pin out helps me get better speed in general, then I'll take the tap in over an increase in 3 putts everytime.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2019, 01:32:44 PM »
The USGA went to great lengths and much disruption to ban certain grooves and anchoring a putter, and bastardizes great classic courses to "protect par".
All in search of ensuring "skill" is the separating factor between golfers.


why on earth would they pass a rule going the other way?
(I have a theory but I've shared my disdain enough)
Hasn't the flagstick rule gone back and forth through the years?  I have seen old film where the stick is left in for putting.  And if they really want to protect par then maybe we should brink back the stymie?


The flagstick rule is not significant enough to really affect scores - maybe it saves you a stroke every 20 rounds or so.  The groove and putting rule are more fundamental to the game and making it more "traditional".

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2019, 01:41:48 PM »

Isn't it funny, in the context of Alex Miller's post, how the same evidence/explanation can lead two different people to polar opposite reactions? Alex takes it out when chipping because it changes his frame of mind to get the ball near the hole. Many people think...why would you ever take it out just in case the club goes off in your hands...


And they say the number representing par doesn't matter...



The flagstick rule change was purely about saving time in casual golf...which it should be able to do.


The USGA did a little bit of homework and thought any advantage found by leaving it in would be negligible. A few people, Erik included, have done studies and think there is a real advantage to leaving it in. Some people, and studies, have taken a different side so at least it's debatable...


The answer AG is looking for should be realistic...how hard could it be to study a players results from make-able distances with the pin in versus out?

Peter Pallotta

Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2019, 02:34:27 PM »
Maybe not so easy, Jim.
At various times (as they were making crucial putt after putt to win a US Open or Masters) I've been absolutely convinced that each & every one of these golfers was in fact the greatest putter of all time:
Goosen
Weir
Koepka
O'Meara
Woods
Mickleson
Furyk
Lyle
Els
Nicklaus
Scott
McDowell
Crenshaw
Woodland
Etc etc
Now, they obviously can't all be the GOAT, so why did they seem that way to me? Because if you're making putts you're making putts -- and after you've made a putt it feels like you could never have missed it in the first place, and like you'll never miss a putt again. Until you miss putts.
And that's the magic, and the un-testable -- whether the flag stick is left in or not.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2019, 02:59:17 PM »
You thought Adam Scott was the greatest putter ever???


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2019, 03:00:15 PM »
You thought Adam Scott was the greatest putter ever???

Jim,

I wasn't going to say it, but I thought Pete's post was an interesting one.  I would have only picked maybe 3-4 of those for GOAT putters myself...

Peter Pallotta

Re: Hardly any golfers putting with flagstick in at US Open????
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2019, 03:10:57 PM »
Ha! I put him on the list on purpose, and specifically.
If you ran a test, and you made 10 putts in a row with the pin left in and then missed (from the same spot) 10 in a row with the pin taken out, what would that tell you? What would it 'measure', or prove? The very next day you might just make all 20, or instead miss all 20. If you were in a 'can't miss' mode you wouldn't, whether the pin was in or out. Of course Adam S isn't the GOAT, and in terms of the pros might actually be one of the worst. But for that week in winning the Masters, he made all the putts that counted most -- and if you had 'tested' him the day before the Masters started, what are the chances you would've predicted that?


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