Does Capitalism Matter?

[Tom_Doak]

I've kicked around the idea of joining Rivermont but it's a 30-40 minute drive from where I live without traffic. That basically means I'd only be able to go there on weekends due to Atlanta weekday traffic; I wouldn't be able to play 9 holes in the late afternoon/evening after work.

This is part of the problem with John's topic / question.  Real estate values vary tremendously from one location to another and that underlies the price of golf in those locations.  And I'm not just talking about Wild Horse or Lawsonia.  Last I heard, memberships at Sebonack cost twice what they do at Friars Head.  Is that because Sebonack is twice as good?  I'd guess it's more about the fact that traffic from Southampton to Friars Head is ridiculous in the summer, and Southampton is where the money is.


But, also, John assumes that the purpose of all golf courses is to make money, whereas my experience is that a lot of my best courses were built for clients who were focused on building a great course, and weren't overly concerned about how profitable it would be.

[Tim Martin]

I've kicked around the idea of joining Rivermont but it's a 30-40 minute drive from where I live without traffic. That basically means I'd only be able to go there on weekends due to Atlanta weekday traffic; I wouldn't be able to play 9 holes in the late afternoon/evening after work.

But, also, John assumes that the purpose of all golf courses is to make money, whereas my experience is that a lot of my best courses were built for clients who were focused on building a great course, and weren't overly concerned about how profitable it would be.

Tom-You are extremely lucky in that regard as I would imagine that a profit motive is at the forefront of most projects. Without any data I would venture a guess that north of 98% of new commissions would not have that luxury.

[Tom_Doak]

But, also, John assumes that the purpose of all golf courses is to make money, whereas my experience is that a lot of my best courses were built for clients who were focused on building a great course, and weren't overly concerned about how profitable it would be.

Tom-You are extremely lucky in that regard as I would imagine that a profit motive is at the forefront of most projects. Without any data I would venture a guess that north of 98% of new commissions would not have that luxury.



Tim:


Yes, as we all know, 90% of new American courses before the crash were driven by real estate development, because that was to be the source of the big profits the developers were after.  And on all of those courses, putting golf holes in the right place took a back seat to the situation of the housing lots, and the courses suffered for it.  I was lucky not to be in that niche of the business, because it's mostly gone, and because the architects who worked on those courses were more in the business of selling their brand than building great golf.


With that 90% gone, I don't think your number of 98% is anywhere close to correct now.  We could maybe have an argument about whether Mike Keiser's motivation is profit motive, and he's developing more than 2% of new courses all by himself nowadays.  But I can tell you that I've had lots of clients who were not too concerned about it, and I think Bill Coore would say the same, and probably a few other designers as well.


Years ago, clients of mine [the ones who ultimately failed to develop Erin Hills] were visiting Stonewall, and told my client there, Jack May, that their goal was not to make money on the project.  Mr. May interrupted and told them never to say that, because you might as well say you are going to lose your investors' money.  He recommended they tell people that they "were not trying to make as much money as possible" from the project, which would set them apart without sounding naive.  That's more what I meant.


My client for Tara Iti, Ric Kayne, has said in print that Tara Iti was a labor of love, but this new venture of a 36-hole resort is being built with profit in mind, and that he "hopes to make a dollar on it someday".  I think that's his sense of humor's way of saying that building golf courses is not the most likely way for a successful businessman to make real money.

[Eric Smith]

But, also, John assumes that the purpose of all golf courses is to make money, whereas my experience is that a lot of my best courses were built for clients who were focused on building a great course, and weren't overly concerned about how profitable it would be.

Tom-You are extremely lucky in that regard as I would imagine that a profit motive is at the forefront of most projects. Without any data I would venture a guess that north of 98% of new commissions would not have that luxury.



Tim:


Yes, as we all know, 90% of new American courses before the crash were driven by real estate development, because that was to be the source of the big profits the developers were after.  And on all of those courses, putting golf holes in the right place took a back seat to the situation of the housing lots, and the courses suffered for it.  I was lucky not to be in that niche of the business, because it's mostly gone, and because the architects who worked on those courses were more in the business of selling their brand than building great golf.


With that 90% gone, I don't think your number of 98% is anywhere close to correct now.  We could maybe have an argument about whether Mike Keiser's motivation is profit motive, and he's developing more than 2% of new courses all by himself nowadays.  But I can tell you that I've had lots of clients who were not too concerned about it, and I think Bill Coore would say the same, and probably a few other designers as well.


Years ago, clients of mine [the ones who ultimately failed to develop Erin Hills] were visiting Stonewall, and told my client there, Jack May, that their goal was not to make money on the project.  Mr. May interrupted and told them never to say that, because you might as well say you are going to lose your investors' money.  He recommended they tell people that they "were not trying to make as much money as possible" from the project, which would set them apart without sounding naive.  That's more what I meant.


My client for Tara Iti, Ric Kayne, has said in print that Tara Iti was a labor of love, but this new venture of a 36-hole resort is being built with profit in mind, and that he "hopes to make a dollar on it someday".  I think that's his sense of humor's way of saying that building golf courses is not the most likely way for a successful businessman to make real money.

Well hurray for the Douglases!