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John Kavanaugh

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Does Capitalism Matter?
« on: May 29, 2019, 01:08:07 PM »
Does the fact that courses like Bethpage Black, Torrey Pines South and Pebble have full tee sheets at premium prices prove that in the eyes of the golfing public they are great courses? In the opposite vein does the fact that Rustic Canyon, Lawdonia and Wild Horse are bargains reveal some flaw in their execution? 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2019, 01:10:21 PM »
Does the fact that courses like Bethpage Black, Torrey Pines South and Pebble have full tee sheets at premium prices prove that in the eyes of the golfing public they are great courses? In the opposite vein does the fact that Rustic Canyon, Lawdonia and Wild Horse are bargains reveal some flaw in their execution?

Equating popularity to greatness is the slippery slope to reality tv  8)

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2019, 01:12:54 PM »
Reality TV is free, much like rater play. I'm talking capitalism here. It has to be important where and why people spend their money.

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2019, 01:15:06 PM »

Drake broke the Beatles 54 year old record for for having the most top 10 hits on the Billboard Hot 100 in a single year.  Does that make him great?


Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2019, 01:18:37 PM »
Yes, it absolutely proves that "in the eyes of the golfing public" they are great courses.


No, it just shows what the highest priorities are for "the golfing public."
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2019, 01:20:18 PM »
Does the fact that courses like Bethpage Black, Torrey Pines South and Pebble have full tee sheets at premium prices prove that in the eyes of the golfing public they are great courses? In the opposite vein does the fact that Rustic Canyon, Lawdonia and Wild Horse are bargains reveal some flaw in their execution?


I hate to use this term, but it best describes the primary difference between these two groups of courses.  The first group are "bucket list" courses for many tourist golfers.  the 2nd group might only be "bucket list" courses for some of us on GCA.  The bucket list factor is a combination of hosting majors, seen on TV, and recognition factor when telling your friends that you played these courses.  Of course Pebble & Torrey Pines also have amazing views.  Finally, there is a certain prestige of playing a "high end" (expensive) golf course.


Also, Lawsonia & Wild Horse are far from major population centers.  But the fame and scenery are HUGH factors.


I made an effort to play Cog Hill #4 my first visit to Chicago in college.  That was in 1986.  I knew of Cog Hill from other core golfers and some minor references in some golf publications.  But no else knew anything about that course I played in Chicago.  Of course since then it has been on TV, and Tiger had wins at Cog Hill.  So now I have played a golf course that the guys at work have heard of.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2019, 01:38:29 PM »
...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 01:44:23 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2019, 01:41:19 PM »
Reality TV is free, much like rater play. I'm talking capitalism here. It has to be important where and why people spend their money.


Free TV? Is that like smoking OPs?



New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2019, 01:51:50 PM »
I think we'll all be pointing fingers at who ruined Lawsonia (it was Andy Johnson BTW ;) ). In the age of Social Media there is less experience arbitrage. Get your overseas membership soon the No Laying Up army is coming.
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2019, 01:53:25 PM »
Clearly, Capitalism matters but the question posed is of an Apples v. Oranges type.


The general public thinks far less of course architecture and far more of larger-scale exposure (i.e Tour stops, Major venues, iconic sites and eye-candy views). They view "greatness" the same way. A Wild Horse or Lawsonia Links maybe great fun, and even better value, but absent a larger "name" worth, won't likely push the needle. Furthermore, location matters a ton as most paying golfers flock to a single famous iconic course and might play ancillary rounds around it.


The non-iconic courses are most likely to perpetually be valued as "fun, neat, pleasurable and affordable for a steady diet." All this said, they aren't the "supermodel" that a Pebble or Pinehurst are. Dating the former is indeed sustainable, affordable and fun......the latter may be fun, but hardly affordable nor sustainable!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2019, 01:54:54 PM »
Reality TV is free, much like rater play. I'm talking capitalism here. It has to be important where and why people spend their money.


Free TV? Is that like smoking OPs?
It is more like "free" online services like Facebook, Gmail, Google Maps, etc.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2019, 02:07:52 PM »
........In the age of Social Media there is less experience arbitrage. Get your overseas membership soon the No Laying Up army is coming.
+1
Atb

Rob Hallford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2019, 02:36:02 PM »
I often equate golf architecture criticism to wine appreciation--both require individuals to develop their own way to sort preferences, which can be easily influenced by outside opinion and easily short-circuited by labels and brands.  (NB:  I personally don't have the innate palate or desire to learn what makes a $500 bottle.)  Tests to become a sommelier are notoriously hard, so being able to discern what's "good" just through experience (taste, smell, etc.) is difficult.  But any yahoo can plunk down a high-limit credit card and buy a bottle of Stags Leap or Silver Oak, decant, swirl, and impress their friends without knowing a thing.   


So, too with golf courses.  The prestige of hosting a US Open or a PGA Tour event provides bragging rights for courses and players of those courses.  Golf Digest rankings give people a list to check off.  "XYZ Golf Club has a $100 K initiation fee--it must be good!"  None of these things tell me anything about the architecture as I will experience it while playing, but they allow for the appearance of refined taste when talking with buddies at "the club". 



I've always thought this site and this discussion group as a resource to learn a common vocabulary and place discuss something deeply personal--taste in golf courses.  That said, there is an underlying shared value system that comes from the early days of this site.  It is built around strategic interest, walkability, fun--things we read and write about here.  This shared ethos allows for fun discussion ("which Redan is better--CC of C or Yeaman's?") due to what we believe to be subtleties of good taste.  It also has enabled me to make up my own mind when playing a new course that I know nothing about--the equivalent of finding the $10 bottle that tastes like $100.  There's an evangelism that comes with this, and what evangelism is complete without heathens? 


So, public opinion matters, but not to me and people I respect.  There's always a market for luxury goods of poor quality but revered brand (try blind tasting vodka some time--COME AT ME!); spend your money how you like, but it seems a bit superficial, no?  I strive to understand not only what I like, but why I like it.  This allows me to enjoy high quality products that deliver value without brand recognition.  How lovely to have a place to share those finds...

Greg Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2019, 02:37:24 PM »
In political/law/government matters, the "voice of the people" is often useful to consider, at least if you plan on winning an election.  But FYI, those whom the public elects are a mixed bag -- some are great leaders and some are.... not.

In economic matters, the "voice of the people" is at least of tangential importance -- after all, the people do the labor, earn wages, and spend on consumer items.  In this area capitalism could therefore matter.

Golf is not a business.
Golf is not an economy.
Golf is not politics.
Golf is not a court of law.

Golf is a game, so "the voice of the people" as a group (and therefore the construct of capitalism) matters little.   It's only the individual player of the game -- when the game is being played -- that matters.

If golfer who is playing Bethpage loves the experience, great!   If they hate it, great!   If thousands of golfers want to fill the BPB tee sheet, great!  If the place goes broke, great!  That's what happens in a free society -- many outcomes are possible.

None of those outcomes make a golf course "artful" or "not artful".   They are only markers of the perception of the people, who may or may not know what they are talking about re:  golf architecture.

It's similar to the world of art or of classical music.   Not many ordinary Americans understand the subtlety of Chopin -- they'll buy Taylor Swift albums instead!   That has no bearing on which musician has more valuable content from an artistic or historic perspective.

O fools!  who drudge from morn til night
And dream your way of life is wise,
Come hither!  prove a happier plight,
The golfer lives in Paradise!                      

John Somerville, The Ballade of the Links at Rye (1898)

Bill Charles

Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2019, 03:17:35 PM »
Do you have any evidence their tee sheets are full? I have heard they are struggling because they’ve been Rees-torn apart and no one wants to play terrible design. Prove me wrong.

Greg Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2019, 03:21:17 PM »
I have zero evidence re:  BPB tee sheets.   My point above was that it didn't matter whether they were making bazillions or going broke -- that condition is not connected in any way to the "artfulness" or "inartfulness" of the golf course.
O fools!  who drudge from morn til night
And dream your way of life is wise,
Come hither!  prove a happier plight,
The golfer lives in Paradise!                      

John Somerville, The Ballade of the Links at Rye (1898)

Bill Charles

Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2019, 03:23:21 PM »
I have zero evidence re:  BPB tee sheets.   My point above was that it didn't matter whether they were making bazillions or going broke -- that condition is not connected in any way to the "artfulness" or "inartfulness" of the golf course.


I was asking the original poster. He seems to think these atrocities are so successful, I want to see proof.

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2019, 03:30:56 PM »

Do you have any evidence their tee sheets are full? I have heard they are struggling because they’ve been Rees-torn apart and no one wants to play terrible design. Prove me wrong.
There are no out-of-state tee times available over the next 5 days on the Black (That's as far out as I can look)
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2019, 03:33:28 PM »

Do you have any evidence their tee sheets are full? I have heard they are struggling because they’ve been Rees-torn apart and no one wants to play terrible design. Prove me wrong.
There are no out-of-state tee times available over the next 5 days on the Black (That's as far out as I can look)


All tee times on Black are walk-up only through June 4.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2019, 03:37:42 PM »


Do you have any evidence their tee sheets are full? I have heard they are struggling because they’ve been Rees-torn apart and no one wants to play terrible design. Prove me wrong.
There are no out-of-state tee times available over the next 5 days on the Black (That's as far out as I can look)
So I was right! :)


All tee times on Black are walk-up only through June 4.
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Bill Charles

Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2019, 03:39:22 PM »
If the course was better it would be booked a month out.

Nick Ribeiro

Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2019, 04:41:24 PM »
If the course was better it would be booked a month out.


You are delusional. Go to the other thread where you can dream of redesigning these iconic masterpieces.

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2019, 04:59:47 PM »
It appears that half of the courses named are run by local and state governments. Why are we talking about capitalism?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2019, 10:27:22 PM »
It appears that half of the courses named are run by local and state governments. Why are we talking about capitalism?


Jeff,


I have to commend you on an excellent observation. Thanks.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Capitalism Matter?
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2019, 10:43:57 PM »
At one time in the late 90's Knight Golf in Michigan purchased more true temper shafts and golf pride grips than any other golf manufacturer...most on here have never heard of them...Capitalism is working for a lot of smaller courses while social media is hyping a lot of stuff that has no chance of making it more than 10 years.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"