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George Pazin

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Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2003, 05:13:49 PM »
And for all of you out there that are reading this--this is what I have to live with in my life--certain "friends" calling me every weekend telling me they're on the way to play Piping Rock or Shinnecock, or even calling me from the clubhouse at 12:00am my time here on the west coast to tell me they just saw the Ghost of C.B. MacDonald in the hallway, coming up from the kitchen from having a mid-night snack.

FU!

 :D :D :D :D :D :D

I'd say they are repaid by your calls in January & February... :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tony_Chapman

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Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2003, 05:14:30 PM »
Tommy - Please refrain from laughter, but what is the title. I will definitely purchase it. Can it be had on amazon.com or any other recommendations would be fine. Thanks for your help!!

GeoffreyC

Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2003, 05:14:39 PM »
Tommy

I think you must mean when your "friends" call  you at 9 AM east coast time and wake you at 6 AM your time.  Its those 9 PM calls from you that come in at midnight.

Who loves you baby  ;)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2003, 05:15:33 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

George_Bahto

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Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2003, 05:16:26 PM »
Child's: - geez - there you go writing all over the pictures (hah)

Tommy was worried about my using the photos - I have hundreds more - lots of old ones - so not to worry ,,,, we left a lot of NGLA material out of The Evangelist of Golf on purpose ....... and Geoff, once the picture about the publisher clears up a bit I'll hav answer about the next book(s).

As anyone who is interested in golf course architecture and has access to NGLA knows, every time you go there you find something new.

But to me the real story is how Charlie Macdonald "figgered" all this out in 1907 when there was no real guideline for this in America and here we are nearly 100 years later aghast and astounded at his masterpiece ......... still finding out new stuff.

Bill and I were out there the other day talking about some of the lost bunkers we were "inspecting" that are just grown over now.

There is still lots to do there and I'm confident it will only get better as these lost hazards get reclaimed. There is this huge pit beyond the deep bowl depression on hole 2 that, if restored, would come into play today with this crazy equipment we have. This thing is so deep that if you were in it I think you might be 25 feet below 2-green.

Then there are two bunkers to the right of the present carry bunker on 16 that are overgrown with tall grasses and weeds.

What I was very impressed by, aside from the green expansion, was the FAIRWAY EXPANSION. Let them hit the ball wherever they want - they still have to contend with these great greens and their protective bunkering.

CB has been called a lot of things .... but he was "the man"

Stay tuned.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George Pazin

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Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2003, 05:19:27 PM »
Tommy - Please refrain from laughter, but what is the title. I will definitely purchase it. Can it be had on amazon.com or any other recommendations would be fine. Thanks for your help!!

It's called The Evangelist of Golf. Long awaited by everyone onboard, it surpassed expectations. Kind of like playing golf on eastern LI, I'd imagine. You should also read George's Feature Interview on this site, it's one of the best.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2003, 05:24:12 PM »
tkchap,
As Uncle George has posted, The Evangelist of Golf. I think Uncle George would probably be more then happy enough to sign you a copy too, wouldn't you Uncle George?

I suggest this, but it from Amazon.com, and have them mail it to George's address, and from there, George can mail it to you. I think its worth the effort for you to have such a great book with this great man's signature!

Here is the link for Amazon below:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1886947201/qid=1067030748/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-4481307-3646569?v=glance&s=books

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2003, 05:28:22 PM »
George, To let you know, and you can relay this to you other Pitttown buddy there, "Winter is coming! Expect lost of calls!" 8) 8) 8)

Dr. Childs,
Just remember, I know how to work the phone from my end at 12:00am Pacific Standard Time!

Speaking of which--an hour back this Saturday night--unless your in Hawaii!

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2003, 05:37:53 PM »
Holy buckets!! That would be awesome. I will see if I can make it work. Thanks again for all of your help fellas.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2003, 06:59:17 PM »
Is the Baypoint property located to the right of #1 or behind the tee and pro shop? Thanks.

Joel,

The entire Bayberry proprty is right of 1 and behind the proshop. See the entrance road to Bayberry coming off Sebonac which goes through 8 & 11 which is right before the little bay at the top. That little cove like bay wraps around Bayberry until you hit Peconic Bay, about a 1/2 mile towards NYC. There is a small quiet beach at that corner, but the rest is Bayberry. Lots of trees, and The Group For The South Fork will not let those come down too easily.

ian

Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2003, 08:51:09 PM »
George,

Could you please post some more pictures, they are wonderful.

Ian

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2003, 10:12:25 PM »
Ian - yes I will - thank you - I'll be out of town til next Wednesday though so stay tuned
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2003, 10:22:34 PM »
...... and by the way the ghost of Mr. Macdonald (let's show some respect occasionally) .... his ghost still roams the grounds - especially in the clubhouse.

The ghost took a big hit when they replaced the old (falling apart) proshop - you could ask the last pro, Mike Muller, he'll vouch for this ghost thing.

Macdonald: "water??  ..... raked sand bunkers?  my ass - over my dead body - I'd have a herd of horses run through these bunkers every morning! - and look at those trees ..... let's sing an drinking song and have a few - I can't take it"

I think he is out there laughing at us - like, "so you think you've got this place figured out, huh?"
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TomSteenstrup

Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2003, 12:15:35 AM »
what is that little patch of fairway next to the 18th fairway, close to the beach? is that actually in play - and any reason to go there besides curiosity?

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2003, 12:51:27 AM »
that's the tee for the driving range
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2003, 02:06:29 AM »
GeorgeB:

I think Wayne and I missed seeing you by a day. We were looking around with BillS and MattB last Monday most of the morning. We spent some time looking at what you refer to as the deep pit behind the bowl to the right of #2 green with Matt. We all felt that the sand should be restored in it throughout the flat floor and just cut down the grass on the inside of that bunker. But more importantly remove that rough fescue area between that bunker and the bowl but more importantly still put back into fairway grass that area just to the right of the two fairway bunkers just to the right of the green approach. That way well hit tee shots going at that green that are pushed some will hit that right to left slope (excellent slope)  just to the right of those right fairway approach bunkers and have a better possibility of running into that big pit bunker! All that rough fescue grass between the bowl and the pit is penal but it would be more interesting to put that into short grass as you would have a fairly tough tight lie from that area if your ball didn't run into or near that big pit bunker. Possibly behind the back of the green should be into shorter grass too getting the ball to run farther down the hill behind. Driving that green is very possible and doable but the penalty for missing it even a bit should be iffy to severe! All that would probably have the effect of balancing the interesting tee shot choices all the more.

TEPaul

Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2003, 02:12:56 AM »
We also discussed the effectiveness of putting into fairway height the area just over the big carry bunker on #1 to the right of those low mounds over the carry bunker. Matt felt that in low cut that area would be more interesting and probably problematic to play from than the light rough grass it's now in. I couldn't agree more with him. It would be no different really than all that short grass they restored to the left of #5 green--including around that bunker left of the green!!

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2003, 03:17:59 AM »
George and Tommy,

Thanks for these pics.  I have heard and read so much about this course but until these pics came up I didn't realise how damn good the shaping is.

Now I am starting to understand Pat Mucci and why he rants and raves so much about it.

Tommy you hit the nail on the head as you do many a time on this site.  How can you compare NGLA (which is a shapers university) to Sand Hills (which is a routing university).  One is so utterly manufactured yet perfect and the other is so natural and perfect.

Brian.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Patrick_Mucci

Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2003, 07:52:36 AM »
Brian Phillips,

Some people have misunderstood my praise of the genius of the design and architecture at NLGA, choosing to call it ranting and raving, but, as more people are exposed to NGLA they too will begin to see its absolute beauty and genius.

One of the things that I find interesting about NGLA is the discovery process one goes through with each subsequent visit.  Each visit reveals new aspects of the design and play of the holes.  This in turn creates a desire to return and discover more.

Lost in George Bahto's photos are the dramatic elevation changes, air density and the WIND, important elements in the play of the golf course.

In addition to the genius of the architecture, the golf course is PURE FUN to play.

I've been very fortunate in that many, many of my rounds have been with members of the McBride family, who have been playing NGLA for close to 50 years.  All are superb, highly competitive golfers, and they have shown me shots that wouldn't immediately come to a visitors mind, shots that cope and take advantage of the architecture requiring more simple execution, but greater thought in discovering them.
Shots that have been passed down from their dad to the boys, and in turn to their kids.
As I've said, on # 7, from 5 to 120 yards, depending on pin location, you could probably use every club in your bag.

Approaches to other holes provide a myriad of options as well.
And, the options aren't just of the aerial vs ground variety.
If you opt for the ground, there are dozens of options available, and if you opt for aerial, there are also numerous options.

If I could just play one golf course for the rest of my life, it would be NGLA, and if I could just play one set of holes from the same golf course, a par 3, a par 4 and a par 5, my choice would be # 6, # 8, and # 18 at NGLA.

Bill and Matt are a superlative team, and are improving the golf course dramatically, just as I predicted they would some time ago  ;D

George Bahto,

Thanks for the photos, they're great.

I often wonder, did CBM knowingly design NGLA with its brilliant features, its genius, or was some of that an accidental byproduct of what was intended to be a very good design ?

It's almost unfathomable, that he knew and understood the totallity of the genius he put into that ground, and the reason that I say that, is that his subsequent designs tended to be repetitious, rather then examples of creativity.

Or, was he so certain of the genius of his designs that he wanted to duplicate them at every opportunity, spreading the gospel, so to speak ?  

Tommy Naccarato,

You have to understand that a college education, especially from one of those west coast institutions, doesn't provide one with the inate sense of architecture necessary to discover, differentiate and appreciate brilliant design.

This inherent awareness can't be acquired, it can't be learned, you either have it, or you don't.
It's like having ND in your blood.
Remember, even St Jude gave up on some of these people. ;D

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2003, 09:18:16 AM »
Tom Paul: all of what you said about the area in and around the bowl area to the right of #2 is what needs doing (in today's world) and I'm sure, after speaking with Bill about it, it will be done. As you stated, this driveable green, if missed, will get you in more trouble that you could imagine - and not always the same trouble.

Pat: i don't think Charlie Macdonald (he was usually quite formal about himself ..... always with the Charles "B." Macdonald reference)   - anyhow, I don't think this masterpiece of his was in any way an accident - can't be - it is too complex. The more you get into it, the more you find - it is truly amazing. Then there are the 29-years or whatever, that he continued to fine tuned the course ......... this is why he did not want to built other courses - he wanted this to be the best, hence the continual changing of the course.

Patrick you said (in essence) that his subsequent designs in no way reached the level of NGLA.  This was by design - he was not going to let anything outshine virtually anything at National - even Lido. He did not want Lido to be mentioned as a comparison to National.

As far as "subsequent designs" go. I do not think he had a lot much to do with many of the other designs (except the very early ones)- input? yes. advice? yes. It was mostly that his friends (Willie Vanderbilt, Whitney et al) wanted his involvement.

He only wanted to build links courses. I'm sure he didn't really consider it truly a links course. This is why he perked up a bit with the idea of the Lido course ....... this could be a links course. I'm sure he was disappointed with all these parkland properties he was asked to work with - so fine, he turns them over to Raynor and he would go merrily back to National to devise the next modification of the course.

When he held the first unofficial opening of the course for his close friends, the year before the official opening, he had already built new greens (yet unplayable) on 9 and 18 - again this is a year before the course was really done. He felt those two holes were too short. There are maps that show this. You can see the remnants of the original greenside bunkers on these two hole short of each green. You can also see these changes on the large model down at the "barn" - there the two greens were moulded on the model as huge greensites - like double the size.

So a true restoration of NGLA is totally impossible because where could you possibly restore it to? .... the original 1911 course?   the Walker Cup course of the early 20's?  the course when he finally "finished" it a couple years before he died? ...... there are abandoned bunkers all over the place - did he abandon them or did subsequent parties "lose" them after he died.

Fortunately, the administration and now many more of the membership, really understand what National is and I'm sure they will tread very carefully in what they do. They know they have a "National Treasure."
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2003, 09:24:40 AM »
"The Evangelist of Golf" has been sitting on the coffee table in my family room, looked at but unread, since last Christmas.

I think it's time to read it.

Thanks for giving me the kick-start, Mr. Bahto.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2003, 09:25:42 AM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2003, 09:33:23 AM »
Dan - so it was just a decoration - geez
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

RT

Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2003, 09:38:17 AM »
Pretty defining course for me in my experiences.  Played it in June '81 when gentleman Tom Rewenski was Head Supt.  twas here where 'Merion' Kentucky Bluegrass was discovered.

RT

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2003, 10:11:26 AM »
Dan - so it was just a decoration - geez

George --

If you knew which books I own but haven't (yet) read, you'd feel honored to be in such company!

Dan

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2003, 11:04:31 AM »
George Bahto said;

"So a true restoration of NGLA is totally impossible because where could you possibly restore it to? .... the original 1911 course?  the Walker Cup course of the early 20's?  the course when he finally "finished" it a couple years before he died? ...... there are abandoned bunkers all over the place - did he abandon them or did subsequent parties "lose" them after he died."


George:

I don't know that NGLA is launching upon or even thinking about any restoration of NGLA, at least not in any formal sense. It just appears to me that the club and certainly Karl Olsen and now Bill Sallenetti and Matt Burrows are on a bit of a mission to take the club back from decades of sort of semi-neglect. That kind of semi-neglect leads to decades of tree growth, narrowing in of thngs, fairways etc, obselence of bunkering, green shrinking etc. That kind of thing is what many courses went through over the decades. It's really just a form of lack of capital management of the architecture, a form of deferred maintenance etc. I don't see that NGLA has ever actually been redesigned except by Macdonald and possibly a few others here and there such as Maxwell or perhaps others in specific spots for one problem reason or another. Certainly tee length has been added or extended but if that was done or can be done without screwing up or changing other holes and it makes sense for today's game on those holes--then that's a natural and non-offensive and non-invasive thing to do.

Should NGLA be treated now as a bit of a "museum" by the club and others? If any golf course in America should be it would likely be NGLA. But that doesn't mean that the course must not stay relevant to today's game. It just becomes a matter of how! That latter thought should only be done, in my opinion, in a non-invasive way or a way that basically conforms to the prinicple of altering historic buildings or golf architecture. There's sort of a known formula or perscription for how to do that. It should be followed if anything is done to NGLA.

But restoring bunkers, greenspace, fairway width, tree removal has been done and continues to be done. Next spring those seeing NGLA will likely be amazed at some of the opening up of a few vistas!

But your paragraph above about restoration and what time to take the course back to is a very good question and the answer, in my opinion, is an important one if anyone is thinking about various options regarding that.

It would make no sense to me at all to take that course back to 1911 or to the Walker Cup of the 1920s. Doing something like that would be wiping away all the tinkering that MacDonald did to his own course---as you said for approximately 29 years until his death in 1939. If some sort formal restoration plan is in order and a year is needed that one (1939) is a no-brainer, in my opinion. The course was Macdonald's so why would anyone want to wipe away his own work even if it might fall under the definition of tinkering? For God sake, it was his golf course, he could tinker with it any way he felt like in my book. Why would someone think back then or today they had some right to tell him to stop?

Of course that doesn't mean removing added tee length and such--that made and makes the play of the course stay relevant and basically it non-invasive. Some of the mid-bodies of the holes probably don't play as well for today's game as they did in Macdonald's time and staying relevant with that at NGLA vis-a-vis its historic architecture should be approached extremely thoughtfully and carefully sort of with a thought to what Macdonald thought or might have done!

In dealing with a question like this of yours;

"....there are abandoned bunkers all over the place - did he abandon them or did subsequent parties "lose" them after he died?."

Something like that should be thoroughly researched for whatever answer that can be found before anything is done! Once it is then go forward as sympathetically as possible!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:more NGLA photos
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2003, 12:15:32 PM »
TEPaul & George Bahto,

1939 would seem like an ideal, general, target date, with accomodations for elasticity.

George,

If CBM's intent was that NGLA should be THE gold standard, then it makes sense that he would export his hole designs to other clubs, rather then create new hole designs.