[Kevin Pallier]

I believe this list was recently revised.

Do you agree with their internal Top10? How would you rank  / rate them?

Ballyneal
Barnbougle Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Dismal River (Red)
Old Mac
Pacific Dunes
Rock Creek
Streamsong (Blue)
St Andrews Beach
Tara Iti

[Jaeger Kovich]

Yes.

[Jeff Schley]

Yes.

Jaeger would know. 

[Kevin Pallier]

I believe there are 37 courses in their portfolio to choose from:

The Loop at Forest Dunes
Stoatin Brae Golf Course
Grand Saint Emilionnais Golf Club
Tara Iti Golf Club
Simapo Island Golf Club
Medinah Country Club - Course One
Dismal River Club (Red Course)
Streamsong Resort (Blue Course)
Old Macdonald Golf Links
CommonGround Golf Club
Bahia de los Suenos
Aetna Springs Golf Club
Rock Creek Cattle Company
The Renaissance Club
Sebonack Golf Club, with Jack Nicklaus
Ballyneal Golf Club
Stone Eagle Golf Club
Tumble Creek at Suncadia
The Golf Club at St. Andrews Beach, with Michael Clayton
Barnbougle Dunes Golf Links, with Michael Clayton
Cape Kidnappers Golf Resort
The Rawls Course at Texas Tech University
Stonewall Golf Club, North Course
The Sheep Ranch
Pacific Dunes
The Village Club of Sands Point
Atlantic City Country Club
Apache Stronghold Golf Club
Lost Dunes Golf Club
Riverfront Golf Club
Beechtree Golf Club (NLE)
Quail Crossing Golf Club
Stonewall Golf Club, Old Course
Charlotte Golf Links
Black Forest at Wilderness Valley
The Legends, Heathlands Course
High Pointe Golf Club

[Ronald Montesano]

Charlotte Golf Links is NLE, which is a shame, as it was #1 in my book.

[Steve Lang]

put NLE after High Pointe too, its a hops farm now,  super shame there...


and Black Forest was a limping zombie last summer, still playable, but a faint shadow of its heydays, hope it gets bought and returned to the living...

[Colin Sheehan]

Impressive list. What jumped out at me right away is eight out of ten are built on sand. Either links or abstract varieties of heathland. As for the other two, I don't know specifically about Cape Kidnappers but I always assumed is was more like extreme coastal terrace meadow. If I'm wrong, then that's nine out of ten.


As for Rock Creek, does it have the rockiest, heaviest soil of any other course on the RGD's list of original 18s?

[Jim Nugent]

Related question: which of the courses on Kevin's list are top 100 world? 

[Simon Holt]

Jim,


I think 5/6 are currently in or have been world top 100 out of that top 10 list.


I've played 8 of those and I've heard Tom say more than once that he thinks Rock Creek is one of his most underrated, or something along those lines.  I need to get there!


My ranking of the ones I've played in that 10, more in groups than a definitive 1-10:


Tara Iti head and shoulders number 1. 
Every hole has something special and some unexpected elevation changes too.  The attention to detail in the shaping is incredible - the holes flow beautifully from green to tee and have great variety.  Lots of width which we are all used to from RGD but then a couple of holes that require you to hit a rifle straight tee shot.


Pacific Dunes
Barnbougle
It's all been said before about those two.  Awesome courses.


Cape Kidnappers
Really loved it but perhaps I was spoilt by seeing all the cool aerial photography, which of course you don't see when you're on the ground.  A killer routing and some jaw-dropping moments on some of those tee boxes.  And I'm being super picky as I really, really like it, but the one walk that I found jarring was the par 3 11th when you walk pretty much the length of the hole to play back to the green.


Dismal River (Red) which to me is underrated.  Really interesting piece of land, great variety and some genuinely original holes out there.
Ballyneal - all said before, wonderful course.
Old Mac - cool not just because of the templates but how they were fit into the land without seeming contrived.  My favourite hole might have been 7 which is not a template hole...at least I don't think it is.


Streamsong (Blue) - really liked this course and probably need to go back.  I was lucky to play with about 7 people a year before it opened which remains one of the coolest golf experiences I've had, then to see it at the Renaissance Cup a year later was great.  When I first walked up to 7 I hadn't realised anyone was behind me as I said "holy s**t", until Tom piped up "that's kind of the reaction I was looking for"


I also think 17 on Blue may be the best Doak par 5 I've played.  This is an excellent course but doesn't quite have the grab on me like the others listed above.

[corey miller]

Sadly, I have played very few of the courses listed but have always heard that Ballyneal was actually "under-rated". 

[Ross Harmon]

As for Rock Creek, does it have the rockiest, heaviest soil of any other course on the RGD's list of original 18s?

I haven't been to Rock Creek yet, but have never seen a "rockier" site than Stone Eagle!

[Kalen Braley]

As for Rock Creek, does it have the rockiest, heaviest soil of any other course on the RGD's list of original 18s?

I haven't been to Rock Creek yet, but have never seen a "rockier" site than Stone Eagle!

I've played both and Stone Eagle is certainly more "rocky"....at least the ones you can see.  Its my understanding they had a helluva time on a few holes at RC finding large boulders just beneath the surface.


But Rock Creek is the better course IMO, right up there with Pac Dunes and Ballyneal.

[Tom_Doak]

We actually spent more time dealing with rocks at Rock Creek than at Stone Eagle.


At SE there were obvious rock features which we tried to preserve and route around; when we encountered rock elsewhere during construction it was usually easy to break up and get rid of.


At RC there were granite boulders the size of Volkswagens hidden a foot or two below grade ... we would be almost done shaping a green, I'd want to lower it a foot, and we would have to remove two huge boulders and then fill in the voids.  It was painstaking, slow work.


I personally believe The Loop is one of my ten best courses but all of the others are rated higher by my associates and by the magazines.  The Mulligan course is also some of our best work.  Maybe we will have to expand to a top 20 after our next round of projects is done ...

[Michael Whitaker]

I believe this list was recently revised.

Do you agree with their internal Top10? How would you rank  / rate them?

Ballyneal
Barnbougle Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Dismal River (Red)
Old Mac
Pacific Dunes
Rock Creek
Streamsong (Blue)
St Andrews Beach
Tara Iti

Only played eight on this list. My "favorites" rank of those are as follows:

Barnbougle Dunes
Old Mac
Pacific Dunes
Ballyneal
Dismal River - Red (minus the flies  )
Streamsong (Blue)
Cape Kidnappers
St Andrews Beach

[Jim Franklin]

I have not seen their work overseas which is a shame, but from what I have seen, my top 10 is as follows:

1. Rock Creek Cattle (need to see the new green on 18 though)
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Ballyneal
4. Dismal Red
5. Streamsong Blue
6. The Loop
7. Old Macdonald
8. Sebonack
9. Lost Dunes
10. Stone Eagle

[Ryan Coles]

Why is TRC not included? tough neighbourhood? lack of access? or a missed opportunity?

[Ryan Farrow]

Jim,

I also think 17 on Blue may be the best Doak par 5 I've played.  This is an excellent course but doesn't quite have the grab on me like the others listed above.

3/5 you listed are on the ocean and they are all destination courses except SS. 1 hour from Tampa Bay does not count. I hate to break it to the GCA crowd but many are just as attracted to the shiny objects. Pick up SS and move it to the coast and it would be at the top of everyone's list.

[Simon Holt]

Hi Ryan,


I'm not quite sure I understand?  I listed 8 courses - Ballyneal and Dismal are both inland are I rate them higher than Streamsong Blue.


Anyway, from an architectural standpoint, why do you think Streamsong Blue would be at the top of everyones list if it was on the water?  Genuine question.

[Ryan Coles]

Ignore.

[Tom_Doak]

Why is TRC not included? tough neighbourhood? lack of access? or a missed opportunity?

Because the other ten courses are all really good?


The site for The Renaissance Club was not as spectacular as its neighbors or many of our other seaside courses - although the newer holes, which not so many of the panelist class have seen, definitely bump up the esthetics grade a point or two.


It's a very difficult test of golf, by design - that's what the client wanted - and while that makes it rate higher for some people I think it makes it rate lower for the majority of my fans.  It had support for our internal top ten, but we are not that happy with how much they've narrowed it from the original design.

[Kalen Braley]

Could be also that many haven't seen it as its RGDs only course in the UK...and only 1 of 2 in Europe..

[Kevin Pallier]

I'd give the current RGD Top10 the following rating:

Ballyneal*
Barnbougle Dunes - 9
Cape Kidnappers - 8
Dismal River (Red)*
Old Mac - 9
Pacific Dunes-  10
Rock Creek
Streamsong (Blue)
St Andrews Beach - 8
Tara Iti

The other Doak I've seen = Sebonack - I'd give a 7.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom D - a question:
When you see these rankings and ratings from others, and compare them to your own personal rankings & ratings, do you think any differences between those two lists can be chalked up to outsiders judging the 'courses' and insiders (ie you) judging the 'architecture'? 
P

[JMEvensky]

Tom D - a question:
When you see these rankings and ratings from others, and compare them to your own personal rankings & ratings, do you think any differences between those two lists can be chalked up to outsiders judging the 'courses' and insiders (ie you) judging the 'architecture'? 
P

Thanks for posing the question that way. I kept wanting to ask TD if he thought to himself "Jesus are these guys clueless".

[Kevin Pallier]

Tom D - a question:
When you see these rankings and ratings from others, and compare them to your own personal rankings & ratings, do you think any differences between those two lists can be chalked up to outsiders judging the 'courses' and insiders (ie you) judging the 'architecture'? 
P

Thanks for posing the question that way. I kept wanting to ask TD if he thought to himself "Jesus are these guys clueless".

Peter / JMEvensky

What's the difference?

When one rates a golf course - aren't they considering it's architecture as part of that process?

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