[Nate Oxman]

Here’s a tweet from Brandel Chamblee. Can someone make sense of this for me? [/font]

“The over-education of the golf course architect—this incapacitating education—has led to an over Mackenzieized opinion of design and setup. [/font]

Too many architecture geeks look backward and not forward. [/font]

As has been said, genius is the enemy of genius by overinfluence.”[/font]

[James Brown]

I think I understand what he is trying to say:  Modern architects are are trying  to go back to the future and make modern courses look like we imagine classic courses to be.  Something like that. 


Some of this sentiment I would agree with, but this also sounds like sour grapes from someone whose prime as a pro happened before the distance boom and that is considering a heavier playing schedule next year. 


I do think there are some interesting possibilities in the future of golf courses as. the naturalist/minimalist school matures. 


I like that Mammouth Dunes is testing the limits of width. 


I like that Southern Hills is going through a big time true restoration.


I really like that Trinity Forest was a challenge for the pros. 


I really wanna see how Bandon handles the Amateur. 


And I like that the best new courses are no longer 7500 yards.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Sorry, but who really cares what he says?
Sounds like he’s drumming up Twitter followers by trying to be contentious.


His top 10: https://www.golf.com/photos/brandel-chamblee-my-10-favorite-courses

[V. Kmetz]

Sorry, but who really cares what he says?
Sounds like he’s drumming up Twitter followers by trying to be contentious.


His top 10: https://www.golf.com/photos/brandel-chamblee-my-10-favorite-courses

+10... I mean really, who f'n cares what any of these fatuous panelists have to say?  And as to the platform of the so-aptly-named Twitter, I mean what are you really going to hold of worth in 140 characters?...Lincoln and Mark Twain would be hard-pressed, no less one of these Ronald McDonald armchair jockeys.


If I want to observe public debate over architecture on media, let it be between working architects, or established writers of golf, or champions with long experience of many classic courses. Even the most wild or disagreeable opinions here are worth much more to me. Brandel Chamblee?  85% of you have it more right than him (imo) in most things.


cheers   vk

[JC Jones]

Sorry, but who really cares what he says?
Sounds like he’s drumming up Twitter followers by trying to be contentious.


His top 10: https://www.golf.com/photos/brandel-chamblee-my-10-favorite-courses

His top 10 (in order):


1.  Cypress Point
2.  Pine Valley
3.  Friars head
4.  Shinnecock
5.  ANGC
6.  NGLA
7.  Riviera
8.  PacDunes
9.  Bandon Dunes
9a.  Bandon Trails
10.  Old Macdonald


Seems both a) pretty solid and b) in concert with most folks around here (maybe the order would be shifted around).  Brandel Chamblee might be opinionated but hes the most intelligent and thoughtful commentator out there.

[Nate Oxman]

“Too many architecture geeks look backward and not forward.”
[/size][/color]
[/size]1. What do you think “looking forward” would look like? What would he want to see instead of the return to minimalism trend?[/color]

[/size]2. What could have prompted this post?[/color]

[JC Jones]

“Too many architecture geeks look backward and not forward.”

1. What do you think “looking forward” would look like? What would he want to see instead of the return to minimalism trend?

2. What could have prompted this post?

Probably better questions for him.

[Bill Brightly]

His top 10 (in order):


1.  Cypress Point
2.  Pine Valley
3.  Friars head
4.  Shinnecock
5.  ANGC
6.  NGLA
7.  Riviera
8.  PacDunes
9.  Bandon Dunes
9a.  Bandon Trails
10.  Old Macdonald


Seems both a) pretty solid and b) in concert with most folks around here (maybe the order would be shifted around).  Brandel Chamblee might be opinionated but hes the most intelligent and thoughtful commentator out there.

Nothing wrong with the courses on his list but he did play Muirfield and The Old Course in two Open Championships...

[V. Kmetz]

Sorry, but who really cares what he says?
Sounds like he’s drumming up Twitter followers by trying to be contentious.


His top 10: https://www.golf.com/photos/brandel-chamblee-my-10-favorite-courses

His top 10 (in order):


1.  Cypress Point
2.  Pine Valley
3.  Friars head
4.  Shinnecock
5.  ANGC
6.  NGLA
7.  Riviera
8.  PacDunes
9.  Bandon Dunes
9a.  Bandon Trails
10.  Old Macdonald


Seems both a) pretty solid and b) in concert with most folks around here (maybe the order would be shifted around).  Brandel Chamblee might be opinionated but hes the most intelligent and thoughtful commentator out there.

But what is that comment worth, even as an entertainment?...and define intelligent and thoughtful...of what is his intelligence and thoughtfulness made? And this list, just because it might find symmetry with some homogeneous reflection of "most folks around here" doesn't make him a kindred spirit. But if he is an amicus brief to this boards' taste, it's quite a statement about this banal state of this board...cause then we're little different than the Top 10s that can be found in any magazine/blog/web module or Zagat's...


if I keep CP, PV NGLA, ANGC and make the other six:


Chicago
Fishers Island
Seminole
Merion
Pinehurst 2
Pebble


Is it really that much more less or more amazing or a different taste of a list? I'd know more about him if he would put his least favorite courses down...or the always-good-for-re-tweet: "Most over-rated courses"...I'm sorry to be in the posture of seemingly demeaning Brandel; I'm fairly certain he's a harmless nice man, who might be a chummy acquaintance...this is more of an attack on the "industry" of (golf) media and the advertising-commercial hyper glut of coverage all money pro sports have been beaten with; I haven't watched a pre or post game show in years... give me Jack Whitaker's essays any day.


cheers   vk

[Jason Topp]

I think this all relates to the distance debate.  He has gotten into a number of twitter battles recently and suggested narrow courses with longer rough are needed to properly award accuracy on tour.  Have fairways gotten wider and rough less deep on tour?  I honestly do not know.


His top 10 list is interesting because it contains many courses with wide fairways and little rough. It would seem to undermine his criticisms.


I would love to see communications between Brandel and equipment manufacturers he represents.  He certainly is advancing their perceived interests. 

[MKrohn]

Given I am supposed to be getting all my information in some sort of star chamber, I often wonder how Brandel got in.


I was going to turn him off but I have too many Michael, Steven (even some ph's), Andrew and Davids.

[Thomas Dai]

Do pundits act controversial and provocative because that’s the stance they really believe in on certain subjects or because that’s what keeps them in the limelight and secures theirs jobs with the rating watching networks for a while longer?
Atb

[Ian Mackenzie]

“Too many architecture geeks look backward and not forward.”

1. What do you think “looking forward” would look like? What would he want to see instead of the return to minimalism trend?

2. What could have prompted this post?

Probably better questions for him.

JC, you were asked a direct question that challenged your assertions and you folded like a lawn chair.

Of course his list is sold and is a perfect balance of the past aNd the minimalist present that was influenced by the past. You and Brandel have much to discuss...;-)

[John McCarthy]

Do pundits act controversial and provocative because that’s the stance they really believe in on certain subjects or because that’s what keeps them in the limelight and secures theirs jobs with the rating watching networks for a while longer?
Atb

Yours is perhaps the great question of our day. 


Humans have conciousness - we are aware of the outside world, we interact with it and try to get the things we want out of the world.  We are social creatures and in order to get what we want from the world we have to interact with other humans. 


Having a lot of personal attention is a great way to get the things we want out of the world. 


Humans can very often tell when others are lying in order to further their own interest.  So we have evolved a great defense to being branded a liar - the lie teller believes their own lies, often passionately. 


So, do pundits say controversial or untrue things to gin up their numbers? If one is being objective then of course.  But often in the heat of the moment they will personally believe it because it feels better and makes for a better and more convincing communication regardless of the truth. 


There are ways to train yourself to be a better liar/communicator - it is called acting. 


This sort of thinking leads into the philosophy of mind/mind-body problem/hard problem of conciousness.  Can we get back to talking about redans?  It is too early.

[JC Jones]

“Too many architecture geeks look backward and not forward.”

1. What do you think “looking forward” would look like? What would he want to see instead of the return to minimalism trend?

2. What could have prompted this post?

Probably better questions for him.

JC, you were asked a direct question that challenged your assertions and you folded like a lawn chair.

Of course his list is sold and is a perfect balance of the past aNd the minimalist present that was influenced by the past. You and Brandel have much to discuss...;-)

Your desperation is palpable.  He asked questions of what was in Brandel's mind; nobody can answer those except Brandel.  Try reading before lashing out.

[JC Jones]

But what is that comment worth, even as an entertainment?...and define intelligent and thoughtful...of what is his intelligence and thoughtfulness made? And this list, just because it might find symmetry with some homogeneous reflection of "most folks around here" doesn't make him a kindred spirit. But if he is an amicus brief to this boards' taste, it's quite a statement about this banal state of this board...cause then we're little different than the Top 10s that can be found in any magazine/blog/web module or Zagat's...


if I keep CP, PV NGLA, ANGC and make the other six:


Chicago
Fishers Island
Seminole
Merion
Pinehurst 2
Pebble


Is it really that much more less or more amazing or a different taste of a list? I'd know more about him if he would put his least favorite courses down...or the always-good-for-re-tweet: "Most over-rated courses"...I'm sorry to be in the posture of seemingly demeaning Brandel; I'm fairly certain he's a harmless nice man, who might be a chummy acquaintance...this is more of an attack on the "industry" of (golf) media and the advertising-commercial hyper glut of coverage all money pro sports have been beaten with; I haven't watched a pre or post game show in years... give me Jack Whitaker's essays any day.


cheers   vk

Im not sure if you've been paying attention around here but the board's tastes are little if any different than the magazines.  You may find a couple of courses on the margins of each list, but that would be about it.

[JC Jones]

I think this all relates to the distance debate.  He has gotten into a number of twitter battles recently and suggested narrow courses with longer rough are needed to properly award accuracy on tour.  Have fairways gotten wider and rough less deep on tour?  I honestly do not know.


His top 10 list is interesting because it contains many courses with wide fairways and little rough. It would seem to undermine his criticisms.


I would love to see communications between Brandel and equipment manufacturers he represents.  He certainly is advancing their perceived interests.

It is possible he thinks there is a difference between the modern tour player and the average (even scratch) golfer such that the test necessary for a tour player is different than what modern architects are designing (even if his preference for his own play is on a different style course more similar to the design of the modern architect).

[Niall C]

At a basic level it seems to me that what he is suggesting is that architects shouldn't be slaves to the past which on the whole I agree with. The golden age should inform, not necessarily dictate.

Niall

[Peter Pallotta]

Nate - yes, in the context of the modern game at the highest level, where the importance of accuracy (to good scoring) has decreased dramatically over the last 30 years and the importance of distance (to good scoring) has increased even more dramatically, his answer is not to bifurcate or to roll back the ball but instead to custom-build new professional/championship courses that challenge the best golfers in the world in terms of the current game/realities. And to someone who tweeted that we should return to (superior) golden age principles/designs, he answered "That's like saying that silent movies are better than talking/modern ones". The quote you posted, I assume, is a follow-up to that line of thinking -- and he's suggesting that new forms of architectural genius/creativity are actually being hampered, not enhanced, by a study of & devotion to the older forms.
Peter     

[JC Jones]

Niall and Peter are spot on.


At some point HarbourTown was necessary.  Perhaps we are at the point where the next HarbourTown should be built. 

[Ian Andrew]

has led to an over Mackenzieized opinion of design and setup


He appears to be advocating for narrower courses with higher rough.
That's what I took from his reference to Alister MacKenzie.


I have assumed he believes the best way to combat length is by reducing width.
That's my read of what he says ... I may be completely wrong.

[Kalen Braley]

I think Thomas Dai has it right here.


Half of staying relevant is getting people to talk about you or the things you've said.  Brandel is not my cup of tea, he comes off as a pretentious whiny ass, who rarely has an interesting take on anything... but maybe the ladies like looking at him on TV.  I wish we had more commentators like David Duval and Frank Nobilo.

[Jon Wiggett]

Sorry, but who really cares what he says?
Sounds like he’s drumming up Twitter followers by trying to be contentious.


His top 10: https://www.golf.com/photos/brandel-chamblee-my-10-favorite-courses

Ian,


it must be gratifying to be the subject of his ire though

[Rick Lane]

Doesn't Brandel's top ten list point "backward and not forward"? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

TBH,  most ca writings and musings, including mine, probably dont hold up to close scrutiny.

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