[Steve_Lovett]

Re: graphics - the old saying that "imitation" is the finest form of flattery holds true in this case.


Re: design - it's been said that most every "new" idea is an old idea with new inspiration.


This sort of thing is everywhere. People wear orange puma gear because Rickie Fowler does. People spend insane money on PXG irons because their favorite tour players do. People wore short sleeved mock turtlenecks because Tiger did. That's everywhere.


Tom Doak has a world class track record and has nothing to prove and shouldn't feel compelled to defend any of it. In fact, I wish he wouldn't. The fact that someone's plan is inspired by something that his office has done is a compliment to him and his associates.


I hope Zac sees his dream come to reality. I hope the King Collins guys do a great job. I hope we all never stop dreaming.

[PCCraig]

I was a little critical of Zac a while back when they sent out the flier comparing TBC to NGLA, Pine Valley, etc. in an effort to drive investors.


Generally speaking though, I think Zac should be applauded for helping spreading good taste golf course architecture to the "younger" crowd (No Laying Up, Fried Egg, etc.). I think it's bringing an appreciation for classic architecture which we should all be for.


A member at my home course went down to the Ringer event at Sweetens last weekend. It's certainly representative of the new age of crowd sourcing.  It looks like everyone had a good time. I sure hope The Buck Club gets built...King Collins' plan looks really neat.


I'm not sure Mike Young or Tom Doak are being negative as so much as they know the realities of building golf courses. They are obviously expensive undertakings with a lot of moving parts and many times the dream doesn't become a reality for folks.

[Kalen Braley]

All this bickering and jealousy over a course to be built right here in Utah of all places... It really warms my heart! 


P.S.  Always seemed like a bit of a pipe dream before, but must admit, looking cool that this thing has a real chance!

[Kalen Braley]

A few other fun facts about the location:


1)  Its 2-3 minutes off a major highway exit making access very easy, and only 45 minutes from downtown Salt Lake City and the airport.

2)  Its located in northern Utah's "Goldilocks" zone.  As its on the other side of the mountains from the main Ogden/Salt Lake/Provo valley corridor, it will avoid the very hot summer temperatures, and on average is nearly 10 degrees cooler than Salt Lake in the summer time.  But because its also not high elevation at 5000 feet (relatively speaking for N. Utah), it will avoid the deep snowpack Park City and the other mountain courses at 7-8000 feet avoiding the later spring openings.

3)  The site is currently occupied by a muni, so I suspect the primary hole corridors will need little clearing, and the main building on site could be simply upgraded instead of built from scratch.

4)  As its also effectively surrounded by mountains on all sides, this very much gives the secluded feel, while not actually being so.

5) While not on the property, there is a secluded reservoir only 10 miles to the south for summer time recreation. Its my favorite summer spot for cooling off.

[Lou_Duran]

A few other fun facts about the location:


1)  Its 2-3 minutes off a major highway exit making access very easy, and only 45 minutes from downtown Salt Lake City and the airport.

2)  Its located in northern Utah's "Goldilocks" zone.  As its on the other side of the mountains from the main Ogden/Salt Lake/Provo valley corridor, it will avoid the very hot summer temperatures, and on average is nearly 10 degrees cooler than Salt Lake in the summer time.  But because its also not high elevation at 5000 feet (relatively speaking for N. Utah), it will avoid the deep snowpack Park City and the other mountain courses at 7-8000 feet avoiding the later spring openings.

3)  The site is currently occupied by a muni, so I suspect the primary hole corridors will need little clearing, and the main building on site could be simply upgraded instead of built from scratch.

4)  As its also effectively surrounded by mountains on all sides, this very much gives the secluded feel, while not actually being so.

5) While not on the property, there is a secluded reservoir only 10 miles to the south for summer time recreation. Its my favorite summer spot for cooling off.

As one who has gone through this thrice and hit a dry hole each time, I am rooting for these guys.  Putting something personal on the ground that is widely appreciated and survives the test of time is a crowning achievement.

Two things strike me about this project.   Another current thread explores the considerable difficulty of renovating an existing course relative to starting from scratch.  Flying over SLC, one can't help but marvel at the vast amounts of open space east of the city.  What makes this particular piece that attractive?

Two, related to the above, Location³.  Will enough people drive up there (1+ hours from Park City?) when there are other high quality courses closer in?  Is the closure of the airport course indicative of anything?  Assuming that the price for the existing course is a relative bargain, what does that suggest for the location?

Many years ago, Ron Whitten wrote an article for Golf Digest in which he analogized golf to the pizza business.  The thesis was that in many ways, golf has been commoditized and the consumer essentially buys based on price.  This puts a lot of pressure on higher-end courses (Tierra Verde GC in Arlington, TX was the example he used) that clearly have better design features and are maintained at a higher level to command a meaningfully higher green-fee than the lesser courses in the market.

I would not take the suggestion that the principal win a few times on the Tour before proceeding as a slap or a malicious dig.  It has been a few years since my wife suggested that rather than lamenting my failure to launch, perhaps I might thank God for unanswered prayers.

I do admire the courage and optimism of the builders.  Hope it works out well.   

[Mike Sweeney]

Another current thread explores the considerable difficulty of renovating an existing course relative to starting from scratch.  Flying over SLC, one can't help but marvel at the vast amounts of open space east of the city.  What makes this particular piece that attractive?

Since it already zoned for golf, I would assume this is an easier path. Obviously I don't know local Utah, but in general.


_____________________________________________________


I am totally amazed at some of those numbers in the auction below. The charity auction market for golf in NYC is much softer now. I love Zac's out of the box thinking. Good luck.

If you don't think this is going to get built check out how this auction to raise funds for the project is going. This is the real deal. https://thebuckclubauction.com/Lots/Gallery#

Thanks John I'm going to throw up a couple bids.

[Rob Rigg]

As someone who was involved with a group that went down the path before of trying to get a course funded and constructed (with another idea in the early works - never give up on the dream!) I have massive respect for what Zac is getting after with TBC. From everything that has been written about Sweetens Cove it'd seem like the tree house would be stoked on the opportunity for King-Collins to take on a larger project that already has a ton of momentum and support from the broader golf community. TBC looks like it'll be a rad track if it happens.

That being said, after being a little ways down the path before, I totally understand where Mike's comments are coming from. Concept is light years away from in the dirt and rounds played. And the process is PAINFUL unless you have someone with a YUGE pocketbook.

I've had several conversations with friends about TBC and we all seem a bit perplexed that a few things have not occurred:

1) Financial interest from the State from a tourism perspective (if there will be a public play component - The PR that the course has received in the domestic golf world already is quite stunning)? In theory, wouldn't this be THE course in the SLC / Park City area?
2) BYU alums helping make TBC happen as another venue for the golf team and a great place to hold fund raising events down the road?
2) Wealthy investors in the area with a deep passion for golf? Geez, that location seems totally on point for people with Bs in their bank accounts to take an interest in being involved in something that will be great, even if the financial ROI isn't compelling.
Certainly easier said than done . . .

Not sure what the magical number is for the TBC crew but I hope they get there because this place will be special.

[Kalen Braley]

As one who has gone through this thrice and hit a dry hole each time, I am rooting for these guys.  Putting something personal on the ground that is widely appreciated and survives the test of time is a crowning achievement.

Two things strike me about this project.   Another current thread explores the considerable difficulty of renovating an existing course relative to starting from scratch.  Flying over SLC, one can't help but marvel at the vast amounts of open space east of the city.  What makes this particular piece that attractive?

Two, related to the above, Location³.  Will enough people drive up there (1+ hours from Park City?) when there are other high quality courses closer in?  Is the closure of the airport course indicative of anything?  Assuming that the price for the existing course is a relative bargain, what does that suggest for the location?

Many years ago, Ron Whitten wrote an article for Golf Digest in which he analogized golf to the pizza business.  The thesis was that in many ways, golf has been commoditized and the consumer essentially buys based on price.  This puts a lot of pressure on higher-end courses (Tierra Verde GC in Arlington, TX was the example he used) that clearly have better design features and are maintained at a higher level to command a meaningfully higher green-fee than the lesser courses in the market.

I would not take the suggestion that the principal win a few times on the Tour before proceeding as a slap or a malicious dig.  It has been a few years since my wife suggested that rather than lamenting my failure to launch, perhaps I might thank God for unanswered prayers.

I do admire the courage and optimism of the builders.  Hope it works out well.   

Lou lots of good questions:

1)  The course is actually quite north of Salt Lake city.  Directly east of Salt Lake City is mostly mountainous land and completely unsuitable for any type of golf (except one little valley that already has a 36 hole public facility).  Utah in general thou is full of massive open spaces outside of the main corridor. Given the site is relatively flat, (the previous builder didn't do much buildup to create green sites or features otherwise), I'd liken it more to the canvas painted white, which seems an easier starting point than one where a bunch of dirt has been moved. As for what makes its attractive see my original 5 points, and I'm guessing the price is bargain basement.  I don't know how the current course keeps its doors open...

2)  The premise for this course is that will it be better than all the offerings in Park City. I don't know how much they will be competing with Park City per se, but given nothing in Northern Utah is better than a 5 or 6 on the DS, I think building 8 or possibly a 9 is the goal. The closure of WingPointe near the airport has absolutely zero to do with this.  That closed because the city used to get it the lease $1 per year.  But the FAA changed the rules, as its under thier jurisdiction, and the city no longer could afford the new "market value" rate.  So now it just sits because given its so close to the runways, you really can't build anything else there anyways.  (You used to get some really loud flyovers on the back 9)

3)  The current course in Morgan is a Doak 2 at best so none of the locals here in the main corridor are driving 30-60 minutes as we have plenty of better options much closer, much less out-of-state people. I think the draw will be putting a top notch course in the ground that will attract play from both Utah locals and Nationally.

[Kalen Braley]

As someone who was involved with a group that went down the path before of trying to get a course funded and constructed (with another idea in the early works - never give up on the dream!) I have massive respect for what Zac is getting after with TBC. From everything that has been written about Sweetens Cove it'd seem like the tree house would be stoked on the opportunity for King-Collins to take on a larger project that already has a ton of momentum and support from the broader golf community. TBC looks like it'll be a rad track if it happens.

That being said, after being a little ways down the path before, I totally understand where Mike's comments are coming from. Concept is light years away from in the dirt and rounds played. And the process is PAINFUL unless you have someone with a YUGE pocketbook.

I've had several conversations with friends about TBC and we all seem a bit perplexed that a few things have not occurred:

1) Financial interest from the State from a tourism perspective (if there will be a public play component - The PR that the course has received in the domestic golf world already is quite stunning)? In theory, wouldn't this be THE course in the SLC / Park City area?
2) BYU alums helping make TBC happen as another venue for the golf team and a great place to hold fund raising events down the road?
2) Wealthy investors in the area with a deep passion for golf? Geez, that location seems totally on point for people with Bs in their bank accounts to take an interest in being involved in something that will be great, even if the financial ROI isn't compelling.
Certainly easier said than done . . .

Not sure what the magical number is for the TBC crew but I hope they get there because this place will be special.

Rob,

Perhaps I can offer some insight on some of these questions as well.

1)  Utah is both quite conservative and quite cheap.  Outside of industries that heavily lobby, they don't spend money on anything or anyone.  As golf is not high on the activity list in Northern Utah as compared to say skiing and other winter sports, it gets little attention.

2)  BYU is further south in Provo at about 1.5 hours away.  As an Ex-Alum and Ex-Mormon myself the only sport they really push is Football.  Other than that, anything in the way of donations are usually encouraged to be given directly to the church.

3)  Completely agreed on point 3, but the entire Salt Lake valley only has one premium club The Country Club at Salt Lake. Its not really a golf kind of place especially given over half the population wouldn't even play on Sundays anyways.

P.S.  I think this has been a big part of Zac's vision all along...change Utah golf by building one that stacks-up with some of the best.

[Kalen Braley]

I went out there last year about this time and took some snaps.  THought I'd post a few of them again:














This last one is near the highway, looking south towards the property which starts approx beyond that first line of trees.

[Gary Sato]

Looks nice.


Maybe Utah will be a new golf hotspot. I heard the Jackson Kahn recently won a commission over C&C, Gil Hanse and others for a new course.

[Morgan Clawson]

Kudos to Zac and King Collins for developing a very creative and fun looking routing and plan.  I like the alternative tees and greens options, and the 19th hole.  A 19+ hole version of Sweeten’s Cove is a must play!

[Daryl David]

As someone who was involved with a group that went down the path before of trying to get a course funded and constructed (with another idea in the early works - never give up on the dream!) I have massive respect for what Zac is getting after with TBC. From everything that has been written about Sweetens Cove it'd seem like the tree house would be stoked on the opportunity for King-Collins to take on a larger project that already has a ton of momentum and support from the broader golf community. TBC looks like it'll be a rad track if it happens.

That being said, after being a little ways down the path before, I totally understand where Mike's comments are coming from. Concept is light years away from in the dirt and rounds played. And the process is PAINFUL unless you have someone with a YUGE pocketbook.

I've had several conversations with friends about TBC and we all seem a bit perplexed that a few things have not occurred:

1) Financial interest from the State from a tourism perspective (if there will be a public play component - The PR that the course has received in the domestic golf world already is quite stunning)? In theory, wouldn't this be THE course in the SLC / Park City area?
2) BYU alums helping make TBC happen as another venue for the golf team and a great place to hold fund raising events down the road?
2) Wealthy investors in the area with a deep passion for golf? Geez, that location seems totally on point for people with Bs in their bank accounts to take an interest in being involved in something that will be great, even if the financial ROI isn't compelling.
Certainly easier said than done . . .

Not sure what the magical number is for the TBC crew but I hope they get there because this place will be special.

Maybe I had it wrong, but I assumed the model will be private with a significant national membership along with local enthusiasts?  If true, I’m not sure the location matters that much with a nearby airport and large metro area close by.

[Rob Rigg]

You're probably right Daryl. Although millennials tend to seek out varied experiences versus anchoring themselves to one location so  it would be great to see TBC implement a slightly more UK based model where there are times available for the public (high'ish cost and could be limited in number per day), along with National memberships and a local contingent.

The spirit of TBC doesn't feel "exclusive" based on what I've read - More like a celebration of the game and a desire to create an environment where peeps get together and have an awesome time wandering the course. The more golfers we can get out on "fun" and architecturally dynamic courses the better!

[Michael Whitaker]

I am totally amazed at some of those numbers in the auction...

I’m shocked at the bids... over $1200 for a round of golf???    If the money was going to a cure for cancer I could understand an emotional exuberance. But, to build a golf course?

[Mike Sweeney]

I am totally amazed at some of those numbers in the auction...

I’m shocked at the bids... over $1200 for a round of golf???    If the money was going to a cure for cancer I could understand an emotional exuberance. But, to build a golf course?

I am watching college football preview shows on a rainy Saturday morning... Intellectually, I get it. College football is a money machine that I should abandon and go watch a Division III game but....


The same is true of The Buck Club, I think. Zac is building an escape/experience/place/something more than "just a golf course", or at least that is his stated goal. It seems reasonable for that section of the country. A "cure for autism" is my personal choice, but I need a break from that at times. The Buck Club is too far for me, but I support Zac's vision and I actually got outbid on one of the items. I am out of the auction, too much for me !!


PS - Clemson @ BC on 11/10, should we make it interesting? 

[Michael Whitaker]

Clemson @ BC on 11/10, should we make it interesting? 

Absolutely! Golf or non-golf?


PS - BC is the one game I’m Most concerned about... after FSU! 

[Lou_Duran]

Lou lots of good questions:

1)  The course is actually quite north of Salt Lake city.  Directly east of Salt Lake City is mostly mountainous land and completely unsuitable for any type of golf (except one little valley that already has a 36 hole public facility).  Utah in general thou is full of massive open spaces outside of the main corridor. Given the site is relatively flat, (the previous builder didn't do much buildup to create green sites or features otherwise), I'd liken it more to the canvas painted white, which seems an easier starting point than one where a bunch of dirt has been moved. As for what makes its attractive see my original 5 points, and I'm guessing the price is bargain basement.  I don't know how the current course keeps its doors open...

2)  The premise for this course is that will it be better than all the offerings in Park City. I don't know how much they will be competing with Park City per se, but given nothing in Northern Utah is better than a 5 or 6 on the DS, I think building 8 or possibly a 9 is the goal. The closure of WingPointe near the airport has absolutely zero to do with this.  That closed because the city used to get it the lease $1 per year.  But the FAA changed the rules, as its under thier jurisdiction, and the city no longer could afford the new "market value" rate.  So now it just sits because given its so close to the runways, you really can't build anything else there anyways.  (You used to get some really loud flyovers on the back 9)

3)  The current course in Morgan is a Doak 2 at best so none of the locals here in the main corridor are driving 30-60 minutes as we have plenty of better options much closer, much less out-of-state people. I think the draw will be putting a top notch course in the ground that will attract play from both Utah locals and Nationally.

Kalen,

I think I've told you before that I think you are way too unkind to UT and PC golf.  I've played GD's "top 10" in the state and I like all but one very much.  If TBC can pull golfers away from Glenwild, Victory, Promontory, Tuhaye, all the more power to it.  I have to wonder the size of the population of gca.com-like golfers who prefer a more sedate site over the beauty, scale and drama of the aforementioned.

One of the things which struck me about the marketing outing at Sweetens Cove was the number of times carts appeared in the videos.  The aforementioned PC area clubs are difficult to walk given the altitude and large elevation changes.  Perhaps that would be a competitive advantage for TBC on a calmer site, provided of course that there are enough golfers of the "Schultzie" variety.

[Kalen Braley]

Lou,

I've played both courses at Promontory and have seen Glenwild and Tuhaye up close and personal.  The two at Promontory I have at DS 6's and Tuhaye a 5.  While Glenwild looked very good, it doesn't seem to fit the DS 7 description, perhaps a 6.5. Other courses like Jeremy Ranch, which I've also played, and Park Meadows are certainly not even 5s.  I do think I've played enough courses as a reference point as neither of the Promontory courses are in my personal top 20.

While I think TBC would draw away some Park City types, I suspect they're looking more at golf purist types, as opposed to the 1%'ers who buy a place in Park City,  first and foremost for the winter activities and vacation getaway aspects, with golf secondary or even lower down the list.

P.S.  Agreed on your last point, I've yet to see or play anything in Park City even close to walkable for the average joe, but TBC site is certainly so.

P.P.S.  I should also mention Park City is also only 45 minutes away from TBC site...

[Lou_Duran]

Kalen,

Before some on the original thread got so defensively hostile, I Google mapped the proposed site from where I stay in PC in anticipation of maybe meeting with the principals.  It was just over an hour as I recall.   I also spoke to a couple active area golfers and they were of the opinion that the club would have a hard time drawing from PC.  I am glad to hear that these types are probably not being targeted.

RE: the Doak system, I suspect that many DG participants like it so much because of the strong bias against GD and GW, and Tom's considerable participation in the site.  We love Tom's work.  The vast majority of golfers don't know who Tom is.

Personally, the extent to which I will go to play a course has a lot to do with its reputation and whether I have seen it before (more if it is new to me).  I suspect that most golfers don't travel to an area just to play a specific course with possible exceptions for ANGC, Pebble Beach, and maybe Pine Valley.  I would not go to PC specifically to play any of the courses I mentioned, but would want to play all of them when getting away from the Dallas heat and visiting family.  BTW, I would also want to play Soldier Hollow and Park Meadow (which I have seen, but not played).

BTW2, I think Glenwild is well in the top 100 (I've played > half of the top 200 U.S. on GD and GW lists), Victory maybe toward the bottom, and Promontory-Dye borderline.  I like Tuhaye a lot, but perhaps the residential component detracts unfairly.  For the record, I believe that untidy routings through difficult sites can be justified by compelling shot values and natural beauty.  I don't think my ass is too damned fat to cloud my judgment, but hey, golf is a big world.

[Mike_Young]

Lou and Kalen,I had told myself I would make no more comments on this topic since anything other than congrats is considered attacking.  But the conversation you two are having drew me back in.  Both of you have good points but GCA Atlas is a small group and a passionate group.  HOWEVER, it is easy to find a lot of fake news in the golf business.  All one has to do is begin to cater to the blogs and rater list and heads of rater list and get the name of your project out there and it can be hyped as the next coming.  Some dudes carrying wet leather bags for 36 holes on a rainy day while talking about a ground game because they cant get the ball airborne may be admirable and passionate and may hype a project but but it does not represent the millennial golfer across the states.  As much as this site may not like the Glenwilds or the whatever name course in the area, they are going to continue to attract money and golfers at a better pace than this type of project.  I would wager every architect out there has had one or two of these types of opportunities on their plate and most times  you can go broke or burn yourself out trying to get this type of stuff on the ground.  You got to have owners and investors that will not miss the $$$ needed to do one of these projects in most cases.  And it's not just for getting it designed and built.  It is also for operating such until it can sustain itself if it can. 
Idealism is great and I think any of us who have been in this business had to go thru that phase in order to survive.  Realism says it is a cutthroat business.  The idealistic millennial concepts are to be admired but there are only so many putter companies, wedge companies, leather head cover companies or even bag companies that can allow one to make a living.  Only so many places that really can make it without golf cars and caddies only or walking only. Most find it difficult to make a living or a profit.   A good real estate salesman at most of the golf courses like a Glenwild or any discovery Land project etc will make much more than the golf architect for the project and the developer will profit much more than that RE salesman and that's why this stuff gets so cutthroat.  Those kinds of guys look at all of these things and if the numbers work then the land/project will be gobbled up.
I get it and like the idea.  Dream and  go for it.  . 

[Kalen Braley]

Lou,

Some interesting comments and I should reiterate I'm just speculating on the Park City crowd.  Yes there are a fair amount of locals who do live there, but there's also a massive number of 2nd/3rd/4th home owners in addition to the out-of-staters who moved to Utah specifically to live in Park City. The extremely close access to high mountain adventures (less than 5 minutes door to mountain) combined with what was still relatively cheap just a few years ago led to the population boom. And to address Mike Young's point, he has it in reverse.  The money came to Park City originally for the winter sports and then many stuck around because they realized summers were awesome too, so naturally they needed a place to play golf!     Glenwild, Promontory, Tuhaye, Victory Ranch, Soldier Hollow, Red Ledges, and the brand new Canyons golf course are all fairly recent to the area (last 10-15 years)...

As for the Doak Scale, I use it because its the best 10...err 11 point system I've found to rate golf courses without resorting to an insanely complex algorithm where i'm trying to measure too much...but I could care less that Tom came up with it.

P.S.  I've played both courses at Soldier Hollow and the upper course(Gold) is probably a 5-5.5. They switched the 9's for some reason, but the original back 9 has a couple of terrific holes. The Silver is good too, I'd rate it a 4.

P.P.S  I also understand the non-stop mountain views can be intoxicating to visitors, but you get used to em after awhile.  Remember, there isn't one golf course in Northern Utah that doesn't have them for a back drop. 

[JR Potts]

One of the things which struck me about the marketing outing at Sweetens Cove was the number of times carts appeared in the videos. 

Couldn't help but get a huge chuckle out of that observation as well.  Maybe Sweetens needed the cart revenue?


I give the club a zero percent chance of 5-year survival - if ever built.

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