[Jaeger Kovich]

It’s not something we really think about that often. Carnoustie Certainly has them on display this week. There is even a few on the logo! If memory serves correct they really only come really  near play on 9 and 10... What do we think?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Formby has them. When they are not planted I think they are fine.

[Kalen Braley]

Planting a bunch of trees on TOC is the last step it needs so it can go to the top of the rankings!!

[James Reader]

I was at Carnoustie yesterday for the first time in 30 years.  I’m sure I remember more stands of pine trees around the course (the area around 3/4/5).  Am I imagining it or have some been taken out?

[Marty Bonnar]

I was at Carnoustie yesterday for the first time in 30 years.  I’m sure I remember more stands of pine trees around the course (the area around 3/4/5).  Am I imagining it or have some been taken out?

James,
Your memory isn’t failing you! There’s a few been removed. I’m sure I have old photos. I’ll try and find them.
Cheers,
F.

[Niall C]

James

The old greenkeeper John Philp took out a lot and I believe the current greenkeeper is of the same "mindset". The trees were originally planted in the 1930's.

Niall

[Duncan Cheslett]

Formby has them. When they are not planted I think they are fine.

Formby's trees are not native. They were planted in the first half of the 20th century to help against dune erosion.


I suspect that Carnoustie's very similar pines have the same provenance.


Where they are on the perimeter of the course I find them majestic. On some holes at Formby however, they intrude on play and should be removed IMO.


I played there with well known golf arboculturist John Nicholson recently and he was itching to get a chainsaw out!

[Sean_A]

Formby has them. When they are not planted I think they are fine.

Formby's trees are not native. They were planted in the first half of the 20th century to help against dune erosion.

If Formby's trees were planted for dune erosion it begs the question as to why other links haven't had the same issue.  I am sure the trees along 1-3 have nothing to do with erosion.  In fact, I wonder where trees would have helped erosion?  That said, the 7th needs a clearing out.  The 8th could do with some work.  Some trees casting shadows on 3 green and 4 tee could do with some work, but I am not sure the trees are on Formby property.  In truth, the 7th is the only real problem hole...its bloody narrow and is hard enough without trees causing problems. If you can, find out more about this erosion deal.


Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Sean,


It wasn't necessarily the golf club who planted the pine forests at Formby; it appears to have been a far more ambitious (if misguided) project to attempt to stabilise the Sefton dunes which have been retreating inland for millennia.

http://www.sandsoftime.hope.ac.uk/succession/pines.htm

I would imagine that the trees were planted by the club along the first few holes at Formby as screening against the railway line and in keeping with the forests growing around much of the rest of the course.

The 7th and 8th are newish holes built after coastal holes were lost to erosion. The forest was already there by then and the holes were carved out of it. As the trees (and red squirrels) at Formby have become generally more celebrated than the golf course itself I don't suppose any major scheme of tree removal is an option for the club. There is almost certainly a TPO on the whole area, despite the forest only being 100 years old.

It has to be said that the pines at Formby are bloody lovely trees!

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,


I know the new holes were built to replace ones abandoned due to erosion concerns but was the land actually lost? Last time I was there in the late 80,s the old holes were still there to walk across and there had been no further erosion of that part over the previous two decades.


Jon

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan,


I know the new holes were built to replace ones abandoned due to erosion concerns but was the land actually lost? Last time I was there in the late 80,s the old holes were still there to walk across and there had been no further erosion of that part over the previous two decades.


Jon

Jon,


Google Earth suggests that little or no land was actually ever lost. I've read that that the Formby dunes are moving inland at a rate of 4 metres per year. This rather alarming statistic doesn't seem to tally with the rate at which land has been lost to the sea. Are new dunes formed to the seaward side as the existing dunes shift inland?

http://www.sandsoftime.hope.ac.uk/index.htm

Perhaps this constantly changing dunescape is the reason the club felt the need to build new holes on more "permanant" land.

This dune movement has always been a feature of this stretch of coast. It undoubtedly explains the Edwardian attempts to halt it with the planting of thousands of Scots Pines (pinus sylvestrus), a tree native to England but previously extinct locally for hundreds of years.

[David Davis]

Formby has them. When they are not planted I think they are fine.

Tommy, for me you hit the nail on the head here.


My home course is a links with trees affecting 5 holes in a Formby style however, they are all planted and don't really have any place in the dunes landscape there. I HATE this and it takes away from wonder of the dunes and does little positive for the course. These are Pine Trees native to Spain and Cypress planted between WW1 and WW2.


So I'm definitely against planting trees on links courses. 

[Duncan Cheslett]

David,


I would agree entirely with you.


However, at Formby the pine forests have been there almost as long as the golf course and are now seen as a special feature of the whole area. The area is owned by the National Trust and attracts hundreds of thousands of people a year to visit the beach, the woods, and to glimpse the red squirrels.


A golf course (or two) which happens to lie adjacent to this area is of little importance in the great scheme of things.

[Adam Lawrence]

David,


I would agree entirely with you.


However, at Formby the pine forests have been there almost as long as the golf course and are now seen as a special feature of the whole area. The area is owned by the National Trust and attracts hundreds of thousands of people a year to visit the beach, the woods, and to glimpse the red squirrels.


A golf course (or two) which happens to lie adjacent to this area is of little importance in the great scheme of things.

It's the squirrels that are the key, not the woods, which are only ancillary to the squirrels really. And it's quite right too. When you consider the decline of our native red squirrels, damn right the survival of the Formby colony is more important than any golf course.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Agreed Adam.


While we may think of a golf course when we think of Formby, 99.9% of the population think of beaches, trees and squirrels.


https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/formby

[Jeff_Brauer]

Whenever I look at landscapes in general, I find there are more trees on them than my minds eye would expect, including on or at least near links land.  Not too many places in the world that don't have at least some trees (at least if they get any rainfall at all)

[Sean_A]

David,

I would agree entirely with you.

However, at Formby the pine forests have been there almost as long as the golf course and are now seen as a special feature of the whole area. The area is owned by the National Trust and attracts hundreds of thousands of people a year to visit the beach, the woods, and to glimpse the red squirrels.

A golf course (or two) which happens to lie adjacent to this area is of little importance in the great scheme of things.

It's the squirrels that are the key, not the woods, which are only ancillary to the squirrels really. And it's quite right too. When you consider the decline of our native red squirrels, damn right the survival of the Formby colony is more important than any golf course.

I don't see a contradiction in good tree management and providing a habitat for squirrels.  Maybe the club should change its logo? That said, I have yet to see a squirrel on the course!  Or maybe I didn't pay attention because squirrels are dime a dozen where I come from.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Red squirrels, very rare in the UK these days. The non-native introduced grey squirrel has taken over their habitat at alarming speed.


As to the course, tree/scrub management on any course is always necessary and some areas on both Formby GC and Formby Ladies course are now OTT. Take the eye off trees/scrub and they'll be reaching skywards and sidewards and seeding pretty quick. And the taller they are allowed to grow the more time consuming and expensive and controversial they are to remove. Well managed sheep and cattle and goats on courses, even if not for the full year, can be useful.


atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Duncan,


I know the new holes were built to replace ones abandoned due to erosion concerns but was the land actually lost? Last time I was there in the late 80,s the old holes were still there to walk across and there had been no further erosion of that part over the previous two decades.


Jon

Jon,


Google Earth suggests that little or no land was actually ever lost. I've read that that the Formby dunes are moving inland at a rate of 4 metres per year. This rather alarming statistic doesn't seem to tally with the rate at which land has been lost to the sea. Are new dunes formed to the seaward side as the existing dunes shift inland?

http://www.sandsoftime.hope.ac.uk/index.htm

Perhaps this constantly changing dunescape is the reason the club felt the need to build new holes on more "permanant" land.

This dune movement has always been a feature of this stretch of coast. It undoubtedly explains the Edwardian attempts to halt it with the planting of thousands of Scots Pines (pinus sylvestrus), a tree native to England but previously extinct locally for hundreds of years.

Quick answer is that yes, new dunes are formed to the seaward side as the existing ones shift inland. Hence moving sand dunes are not related to whether there is erosion and a loss of land on the coastal side.


A lot of vegetation, not just trees but buckthorn and gorse, was planted on some of our links courses to stop erosion. Whilst this is a genuine coastal management technique, it often didn’t take in to account shifts in coastal behaviour. Hence a strip of coast that eroded over a period of say 10 years can in fact reverse that trend over the following 20 because of changes that have happened further along the coast.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Quick answer is that yes, new dunes are formed to the seaward side as the existing ones shift inland. Hence moving sand dunes are not related to whether there is erosion and a loss of land on the coastal side.

Thanks for confirming that Ally. I'm not sure that this is common knowledge.


Presumably this explains why on many links courses, holes are routed on flat ground in the lee of the dunes rather than over the more "interesting" dunes themselves. If the dunes are constantly moving maintaining golf holes and greens actually within the dunes is going to prove impossible in the long term.


Do dunes usually move inland, or does it depend on which coast you are on? Or do local conditions affect dune movement?


Does planting trees such as the pines at Formby have any effect at all? It is interesting that at either side of Formby Point the pine forests are being felled in an attempt to restore the dunes to their natural state.

[MCirba]

If God had wanted trees on our linksland He would have put it there. 


 

[Ronald Montesano]

As long as their master has them on a leash, I'm fine with trees on the links.

[Marty Bonnar]

I was at Carnoustie yesterday for the first time in 30 years.  I’m sure I remember more stands of pine trees around the course (the area around 3/4/5).  Am I imagining it or have some been taken out?

James,
Your memory isn’t failing you! There’s a few been removed. I’m sure I have old photos. I’ll try and find them.
Cheers,
F.

This from 2002.
Think it's looking back along #15?[size=78%][/size]

[Marty Bonnar]

And these randoms in the rough left of #5!

[James Reader]

I was at Carnoustie yesterday for the first time in 30 years.  I’m sure I remember more stands of pine trees around the course (the area around 3/4/5).  Am I imagining it or have some been taken out?

James,
Your memory isn’t failing you! There’s a few been removed. I’m sure I have old photos. I’ll try and find them.
Cheers,
F.

This from 2002.
Think it's looking back along #15?[size=78%][/size]

That’s how I remember it.  Have to say that I thought it looked fantastic last week.

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