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Chris Tritabaugh

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #200 on: January 19, 2018, 10:21:32 AM »
I'm going to make a bold statement-especially given the depth of golf course knowledge reading these posts-I'd wager Northland is one of the top 25 marriages of quality golf course and spectacular settings, in the world.
Chris, I would echo your thoughs with one addition. I would add "Potentially". The trees and surrounds continue to improve and I think Northland is probably one of the top "sleepers" in the world. Sounds like they are on a path with Ron and Tyler to further unleash the geinus of that property. "Hey, is that the Edmund Fitzgerald?"
The struggle with the "turf" is one I have no idea how to attack as a non-architect. Truckloads of sand for topdressing?


I think potentially is a fair way to state it. I'm not here to argue or defend my statement-I've not seen enough courses to do so-but it has that marriage of scenery and course.


My opinion is the turf is not really a problem that needs to be solved. It is what it is, and many, if not most of the people who play there have embraced what it is. I've been to Sunningdale, the RAC and Alwoodly. RAC and Alwoodly having no fairway irrigation. IMO, the turf at Northland and the turf at these courses is very similar. It fluctuates with the weather and that should be just fine. Certainly this type of turf is the norm in the UK, but not necessarily in the States. You can see in the photos posted above, the turf is in spectacular condition.


I will add the ground conditions in which one plays Northland will impact the enjoyment. I played up in early October, after a summer of record rainfall; I believe they had a foot or more in September. The course was ungodly wet-through no fault of anyone but Mother Nature-and while its always a pleasure to go back, the golfing experience that day was poor.


Northland, on that site, with all of its inherent disadvantages is completely as the mercy of the weather.

Rick Shefchik

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #201 on: January 19, 2018, 10:38:21 AM »
That was a wonderful summation of Northland's recent history -- thanks, Chris. Your work at NCC is deeply appreciated by many.

One other comment I'd like to make about the greens: You never have a double-breaking putt at Northland. I can't think of another course I've played where that is true. I wonder if that is a characteristic of greens Ross designed in the '20s, or if that was simply a product of the topography he had to work with at Northland.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

PCCraig

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #202 on: January 19, 2018, 10:43:15 AM »

The transformation of the 13th cannot be overstated.


Chris can correct me if I am wrong, but he started to gradually remove conifers blocking the view of Superior. With Ron’s MP he was then freed to wipe them out and open one of the best (of many) vistas on the course.


This is my third attempt to reply to John's post. I tried to post a picture, which apparently is not so easily done.


Here is a link to a post with some photos of what 13 looked like when I arrived.


http://northlandgrounds.blogspot.com/2008/09/new-13th-hole.html


Over the years, even the rock outcropping behind the green was removed, in order to provide the true infinity look, you see in the photos posted above. The bulk of the tree work in this area was done before I arrived. I'm told before it was done, the walk from 13 green to 14 tee provided almost no view of Lake Superior. Amazing given this is one of the best vistas in Duluth.



Here you go, Chris:

Before


After
H.P.S.

Jake Ryan

Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #203 on: January 19, 2018, 11:12:47 AM »

Chris is part of Northland’s history, an extremely important part. Northland is indebted to Chris for effectively changing the course conditions and helping put in place a master plan for our future. I think many of our members, past and present, don’t truly understand or care to understand how important these change are. Some members get it and continue to champion our new direction but many have no interest. That is probably common at most clubs though. Fortunately, I do get to work with many great members that continue to support these changes but most importantly, they support me to continue on with change and trust my agronomic abilities.


With out question, those abilities were learned while assisting Chris during our turf conditioning transition that started 10 years ago. I’ll never forget coming up to Northland to interview for the assistant job back in August of 2007. Having no knowledge that this golf course existed or any idea of who Donald Ross was, I was blown away. Lake Superior as a setting on a perfect Duluth day and the most brown golf course I’d ever seen in my life. A few things ran through my head that day as Chris and I took our first golf course ride together. He is either the dumbest grass grower ever and I’ll have his job soon or he is so damn smart and on to something, that I had to be part of it. I knew when I left that day I’d take the job if offered.


We worked well as a team with common attributes of being industrious, driven and interested to learn. A little sink or swim mindset and stubbornness helped to. As Chris writes about Duluth’s climate, the physical structure of the site and our resources. I can’t fully express how difficult managing this property is through writing. Sometimes, if you don’t know, you just don’t know. Certainly helps that I still carry those attributes to this day. An analogy Chris uses about managing Northland is that its like steering an ore ship versus a speed boat. A change in direction with an ore ship needs to be deliberate and adjustments take time once off course, while a speed boat can stop/start and make turns willy-nilly. I like that analogy, I like being deliberate.


In keeping with Donald Ross’s design concepts, Northland should play firm and fast. Our terrain dictates how shots might be played; therefore, the ground game is a key consideration for maintenance standards and agronomic practices. Our maintenance standards and practices support the golf course’s design concepts.The golf course has a variety of grasses present including bents, fescues, and poas. Our agronomic practices promote the populations of bent grasses and fescues while minimize populations of weaker species present in our region.

Having restoration architects Ron Prichard advising our club with his associate Tyler Rae has been a wonderful experience. Its nice to have architects that understand firm/fast and what we are trying to accomplish agronomically. Tyler Rae did beautiful, dramatic shaping of bunkers and green complexes on 4 golf holes and we are working to complete our course soon. We are adding some more tees to give it a little more length. Fairways have been expanded in width, added nearly 8 acres, that offer golfers more options and potential hazards. Of course, we continue tree removals to further display our beautiful landscape and maintain continuity of our design concepts.

All of this work has been done in-house with a pretty tight little budget. Working along side Tyler during shaping is grueling work but it’s certainly fun to look at when done. I know GCA’ers were at Cedar Rapids Country Club in recent time. Also, a recent course review was posted on CRCC. My hat goes off to Superintendent Tom Feller and Tyler for the work they accomplished on a tight little budget. Just goes to show you that great restorations don’t require a massive multimillion dollar expense.

I can go on and on about turf conditions, architecture and restoration at Northland. I won’t opine about good, bad, favorite holes but I do love the discussion. It certainly has its strengths and weaknesses. Each hole is unique in their own way, both architecturally and to manage. I just feel fortunate to hone my craft here.

Best comment I’ve ever been told, “Its an old goat track”, I took as a complement in the highest regard.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 11:15:06 AM by Jake Ryan »

PCCraig

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #204 on: January 19, 2018, 12:28:06 PM »
I think Northland is a very special place, as is Duluth in general.

It's hard to describe to most Midwesterners, but the drive north from the Cities to Duluth is really neat. For the first 90 minutes it is a general coast along the Minnesota/Wisconsin border, then all of a sudden you reach Duluth and it feels like you just landed in the Pacific Northwest. A massive, evergreen covered bluff to your left, shipping docks everywhere, and of course Lake Superior to your east. It's quite the sight.

Duluth's rugged beauty is captured in Northland Country Club. Donald Ross' routing is unbelievable, given the severity of the site, and a golfer feels like they are on a mountain bike ride. The course zig zags up the hill with fun holes like the short 2nd, and the ~470 yard par 5 4th. The back nine then is like a roller coaster, sending you hurdling toward the Lake.

Perhaps Rick can correct me, but I believe Ross is documented to have visited Northland a number of times during planning and construction. I believe that really shows in the quality of the routing and the subtleties of the putting surfaces.

The greens are every bit confusing as Rick and others have mentioned above. The first time around, you are almost guaranteed at least one putt which looks somewhat straight but leaves you going "wait...what?!?!"

As far as the turf, I love the brown/red/rough look. To me it again fits with the rugged nature of Northland and Duluth. Despite the views, Duluth is not what you would call an ideal location to grow grass. But who cares?

Like many great golf courses, it takes a little extra effort to get to, but when you are there you are always happy you made the trip.
H.P.S.

Chris Tritabaugh

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #205 on: January 19, 2018, 12:43:47 PM »

I think every one can see the kind of pride this course elicits from Jake and I. I think everyone who manages a course feels pride in what they've accomplished, but this is next level pride. Its such a special golf course, to have been a part of its dramatic improvement is something I will cherish.


Jake's story from his first visit is both accurate and hilarious. I remember the day he finally shared those thoughts with me. It was the day I came into work after having found out I'd gotten the Hazeltine job.



This photo came after the trees behind 15 had been removed, but with the trees dividing the holes still in place.




Sean Tully sent me this when I was up at NCC. I believe it is circa 1930. Nothing but golf course here!



I took this photo when I was in Duluth for Thanksgiving. Jake and his crew, and by crew I pretty much mean him and one or two others have brought this view back in time.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 12:58:53 PM by Chris Tritabaugh »

Morgan Clawson

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #206 on: January 19, 2018, 12:52:01 PM »
This view of the 13th hole has been posted above.  But, it's one of my favorites, so...


Northland is a very unique course.  There's nothing else like it in the state, and possibly the Midwest.  As Brad Klein said somewhere:  "Northland has a sense of place".

The routing is terrific.  The first hole plays downhill to the low spot on the course. The next 9 holes climb uphill to the high point on the 11th tee.  From there it's back down the hill to the finish. The course doesn't return to the club house after 9 and the halfway house is tucked into the forest.  So, a round at Northland feels like a journey or a nice hike to the top of the hill and back.

The greens are very challenging. Most of them have a significant slope and giving them a good read is important.  There is only 1 flat green, but it sure doesn't look flat, thus adding to the green reading mystery.

There are a lot of good holes, although none of them might be considered one of Ross's best this or best that. But, the sum of the parts is terrific.

Chris Tritabaugh

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #207 on: January 19, 2018, 01:15:31 PM »
Prichard said he felt Northland was one of the best Ross routings he'd seen. The fact that he was able to get the course up and down the bluff, without compromising the quality of the holes was a great feat.


Morgan is correct, there are multiple confirmed visits from Ross. Notes state he was there to make the initial routing, then called back by the membership because they didn't like the out and back routing and wanted 9 to return to the clubhouse. He came back, gave it a look and more or less said-nope, this is the only way.


I also recall there was documentation of Ross responding to the Club's initial advance suggesting he was quite bust and they use Willie Watson. To which the Club responded they indeed wanted Ross and Ross only. There was a great deal of wealth in Duluth at that time. In fact, I believe there was a 40 year stretch in which Duluth had more millionaires per capita than any city in the US.

Jeff Shelman

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #208 on: January 19, 2018, 08:10:06 PM »
I'm a fan of Northland. I think it is a really cool place.

It was great to encourage Jim Franklin to make the journey to Northland and have it only take about 3 holes for him to think it was really cool.

One of the most amazing things happened the last time I played Northland. It was a Minnesota Golf Association Member Day. On the seemingly impossible 10th, I hit a good tee ball and then rifled a hybrid up the hill. Somehow, I made the putt for a birdie/net eagle. It was good for both a gross and a net skin.

I wrote this in 2011 and it stands pretty true today:

I got an invitation to go up to Northland in September and pretty much spent the day thinking about and talking about why I think it might be the No. 1 treat in the state for a golfer who lives in the Twin Cities.
The golf course at Northland — a great Donald Ross gem that overlooks Lake Superior — is the star, a trip to Northland is more than that. To me it is just as much about solitude and really escaping from reality for a little while.
Let’s say I get an invite to play your favorite club in the Twin Cities on a random weekday afternoon. It doesn’t matter if it is Minikahda or Hazeltine or Interlachen or Spring Hill or anywhere. If we’re teeing it up at 1 p.m. or something, my day is going to go something like this: I’m going to get up a little earlier than normal so I can get to the office a little earlier. I’m going to work like crazy for a bunch of hours to get as much done as possible, I’m going to sneak out of the office at close to the last possible moment and hope like heck that nobody catches me as I power walk from my desk to the elevator. From there, I’m going to get to my car and there’s a good chance I’m going to be making a work-related call on the way to the golf course and there might be a fast food drive-thru in my life. When I get to the club, I can almost guarantee that I’m going to be checking an email in my car in the parking lot and I might have to respond to something before I put my phone in my bag.
I’m sure the golf will be great and it will be a great afternoon, but there is also a bit of stress that goes along with sneaking away from the office for some afternoon golf. Because who is really going to burn a full day of PTO to play and afternoon round at, say, Somerset. Not me.
That’s part of why I love Northland. There is no way to sneak out of the office and play in the afternoon at Northland. Not if you live in the Twin Cities. A round at Northland requires blocking out your calendar. It requires taking the day off. It requires some commitment. It is a true break from life, but it is also a pretty easy one-day trip.
I went up by myself, leaving the house pretty early on a weekday morning. The further north I got on I-35, the more excited I got. As an aside, one of the things I loved about my time living in Cincinnati was the view of downtown as you made your way from the airport into the city. You go around a corner and it is there and it is a great view. I feel much the same way about a trip to Northland. When I go around the curve by Spirit Mountain and get my first glimpse of the lake, it takes my breath away. I love it and I know I’m in for a great day.
The day I played at Northland was one of the first really cool days of the fall. It rained a little. I wore several layers and I think I wore my rain pants all round. It didn’t matter. It was a blast. In some ways it might have made the day even better because we had the golf course almost to ourselves. I think we saw three other groups the entire day.
While I’m not going to argue with anybody who says that they like a certain Minnesota course more than Northland, but I think it is my favorite golf course in the state (despite only a handful of rounds there). I just think it is such a cool spot. And every time I’m there, I think about how cool it would be to be a non-resident member there.


Terry Lavin

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #209 on: January 19, 2018, 08:23:54 PM »
Wow. Just wow. I have fond memories of Duluth before I got really involved with golf and this is a great reason to head up North.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jeff Shelman

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #210 on: January 19, 2018, 09:39:20 PM »
Terry,

Northland is super cool. It's very much worth the drive from Minneapolis. It's a great place and a great day.

Phil McDade

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #211 on: January 20, 2018, 10:29:17 PM »
Chris and Jake -- love this discussion on Northland. I'm not sure -- outside the Minnesota gang here -- if the GCA crowd really appreciates the unique climate of Duluth. I mean, it snows regularly there 9 months a year. I spent a pretty cold winter day up there in August not long ago... ;)  Can you guys describe a bit more the challenges of turf maintenance working in such a unique micro-climate, sitting next to the world's largest air conditioner? Does all that snow actually help in some ways? (Down here in Madison WI, we've had very little snow -- the last of it departing today in the face of a 50+ temperature day -- and the last time this happened around here, a bunch of greens got ruined due to lack of snow cover). Would love to hear your thoughts on turf issues at Northland. Thanks!

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #212 on: January 20, 2018, 10:43:44 PM »
I have only played Northland once, so I don't know it as well as many here. That said I was fully expecting to love the course. I did like it and I thought the routing was inventive and used the land as well as it could, given the severity of the terrain. I certainly did not think it belonged in the same conversation as the elite courses of the state. Maybe I missed something or was sleepwalking through the course. I guess if I get back to MN I'll have to try it again.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jake Ryan

Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #213 on: January 21, 2018, 08:00:24 AM »
Chris and Jake -- love this discussion on Northland. I'm not sure -- outside the Minnesota gang here -- if the GCA crowd really appreciates the unique climate of Duluth. I mean, it snows regularly there 9 months a year. I spent a pretty cold winter day up there in August not long ago... ;)  Can you guys describe a bit more the challenges of turf maintenance working in such a unique micro-climate, sitting next to the world's largest air conditioner? Does all that snow actually help in some ways? (Down here in Madison WI, we've had very little snow -- the last of it departing today in the face of a 50+ temperature day -- and the last time this happened around here, a bunch of greens got ruined due to lack of snow cover). Would love to hear your thoughts on turf issues at Northland. Thanks!


Hey Phil-


It can certainly feel like winter up here in the summer. As you drive up 35W on your way to Duluth you start to see your temperature gauge fall at Cloquet. Those next 20 miles into Duluth its very noticeable. It is not uncommon on a summer day to have 80 degree temperatures in the Twin Cities and come to a 40-50 degree day in Duluth. I actually love it, not much of a warm weather guy anymore. Think about that in the context of winter, going from -10 to +30 or visa versa. A 40 degree temperature change is dramatic. The name “Air Conditioned City” is appropriate and its a unique micro-climate.


Northland as a property has micro-climates as well. Lower portion of the course stays much cooler than the top and its very noticable at our ridgline on 3 and 14 greens. I call that part of Northland the cold shoulder. This is the point where the temperature inversion takes place. Its an ongoing meteorological battle, pretty neat but maddening as well. You can experience 20 degree temperature changes from the top to bottom. A golfer could tee off with temperature at 50 with pants and a pullover. Play holes 4-14 at a temperature of 70, wishing for shorts and taking off their pull over. Then come back down, playing the final 4 holes ready for a cup of soup and snit of bourbon. Always bring warm clothes to Northland, even in the middle of summer.


Variability in climate requires variation to managing our surfaces. Its common in our industry to have micro-managed areas on golf courses. We increase or decrease our inputs and resources to make playing conditions better. This added variablity of a micro-climate requires a person to be more intuitive than a typical golf course. Only time and experience on Northland will provide a turf manager this ability. I’m certainly not the only person capable of this, but it does take a proper mindset.


A major part of that mindset is managing the proper grass for our climate, Wisconsin’s climate too, which is bentgrass and fescue. It is cold hardy and drought tolerant. It is my least common denominator in a management strategy that has so many variables. I only add or subtract inputs to simplify my desired results. My desired results are to have populations of bent and fescue. This mind set led to our turf transition while Chris was here. I think Chris will attest to me saying that the revalation in all of this is that many Superintendent are simply doing too much. As an industry we are getting better despite the golf publics love for playing golf on lush green grass. Lush green grass leads to more problems, management and expense. None of which I’m a fan of.


I’m also not a fan of poa annua, I hate the shit. It does horrible in standing up to our winter climate. Your question about dead greens and snow cover is a good one. I can’t tell you why any one particular course may have suffered loss. I’d put my bet on crown hydration of poa annua populations if it was widespread geographically. With no snow and some sun to tickle the thawed poa awake. Certainly could happen again once temps drop and you don’t have covers. I want snow on my greens in the winter, basically a natural cover to insulate plants. Not too much too early as I like the ground to freeze.


Not to get too winded on this but I’ll add one more opinion. I like my grass to live through the winter. Shocking, right? That’s why I manage for bentgrass because winter is so harsh and it stands up to the test. Bent can have winter kill but not like poa. Go to a no budget little Ma and Pa 9 hole course with bent greens and see how good those greens are when there is winter killed poa on golf courses. In fact, winter is probably a big reason their greens have such great bent populations. Northern climate Superintendents are chasing their tails when managing poa. There’s plenty of blame to be dolled out to golfers, industry trends, tv, and unknowing Superintendents over the last 40-50 years. If a course loses poa and rounds of golf/revenue, they should consider a different approach. We have better knowledge and technology to help us provide our members/golfers with a better product.


Northland is not 100% bent, never will be but there is a beautiful sward of bentgrasses that have been there since the 1920’s. I’m going to keep it that way.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 10:50:57 AM by Jake Ryan »

Criss Titschinger

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #214 on: January 21, 2018, 09:26:14 AM »
As an aside, one of the things I loved about my time living in Cincinnati was the view of downtown as you made your way from the airport into the city. You go around a corner and it is there and it is a great view.


A phrase I did not expect to see on GCA; let alone a thread about Minnesota golf. But it's true, that view coming in from the "Cut in the Hill" gets me every time. I believe the only skyline view in Cincinnati golf is #5 at Devou Park. It's a great hole on an otherwise very forgettable golf course. It's possible Highland CC in KY might have one based on the land it's on, but I haven't played it to confirm.


Love all the Northland pics and discussion, especially from Chris and Jake.


We all know what the top two will be. I'll just say I had the opportunity to play one, but due to the time they could get me out and the Twins tickets I had for that night, I went with the other who allotted me an earlier time. Although I'm bummed I missed out on the first, I have zero regrets of playing the other. In fact, it's still the best course I've played to date. I'm looking forward to the panel's discussion on both, and why they might like one over the other.

Jake Ryan

Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #215 on: January 21, 2018, 10:53:58 AM »
Chris and Jake -- love this discussion on Northland. I'm not sure -- outside the Minnesota gang here -- if the GCA crowd really appreciates the unique climate of Duluth. I mean, it snows regularly there 9 months a year. I spent a pretty cold winter day up there in August not long ago... ;)  Can you guys describe a bit more the challenges of turf maintenance working in such a unique micro-climate, sitting next to the world's largest air conditioner? Does all that snow actually help in some ways? (Down here in Madison WI, we've had very little snow -- the last of it departing today in the face of a 50+ temperature day -- and the last time this happened around here, a bunch of greens got ruined due to lack of snow cover). Would love to hear your thoughts on turf issues at Northland. Thanks!


Hey Phil-


It can certainly feel like winter up here in the summer. As you drive up 35W on your way to Duluth you start to see your temperature gauge fall at Cloquet. Those next 20 miles into Duluth its very noticeable. It is not uncommon on a summer day to have 80 degree temperatures in the Twin Cities and come to a 40-50 degree day in Duluth. I actually love it, not much of a warm weather guy anymore. Think about that in the context of winter, going from -10 to +30 or visa versa. A 40 degree temperature change is dramatic. The name “Air Conditioned City” is appropriate and its a unique micro-climate.


Northland as a property has micro-climates as well. Lower portion of the course stays much cooler than the top and its very noticable at our ridgline on 3 and 14 greens. I call that part of Northland the cold shoulder. This is the point where the temperature inversion takes place. Its an ongoing meteorological battle, pretty neat but maddening as well. You can experience 20 degree temperature changes from the top to bottom. A golfer could tee off with temperature at 50 with pants and a pullover. Play holes 4-14 at a temperature of 70, wishing for shorts and taking off their pull over. Then come back down, playing the final 4 holes ready for a cup of soup and snit of bourbon. Always bring warm clothes to Northland, even in the middle of summer.


Variability in climate requires variation to managing our surfaces. Its common in our industry to have micro-managed areas on golf courses. We increase or decrease our inputs and resources to make playing conditions better. This added variablity of a micro-climate requires a person to be more intuitive than a typical golf course. Only time and experience on Northland will provide a turf manager this ability. I’m certainly not the only person capable of this, but it does take a proper mindset.


A major part of that mindset is managing the proper grass for our climate, Wisconsin’s climate too, which is bentgrass and fescue. It is cold hardy and drought tolerant. It is my least common denominator in a management strategy that has so many variables. I only add or subtract inputs to simplify my desired results. My desired results are to have populations of bent and fescue. This mind set led to our turf transition while Chris was here. I think Chris will attest to me saying that the revalation in all of this is that many Superintendent are simply doing too much. As an industry we are getting better despite the golf publics love for playing golf on lush green grass. Lush green grass leads to more problems, management and expense. None of which I’m a fan of.


I’m also not a fan of poa annua, I hate the shit. It does horrible in standing up to our winter climate. Your question about dead greens and snow cover is a good one. I can’t tell you why any one particular course may have suffered loss. I’d put my bet on crown hydration of poa annua populations if it was widespread geographically. With no snow and some sun to tickle the thawed poa awake. Certainly could happen again once temps drop and you don’t have covers. I want snow on my greens in the winter, basically a natural cover to insulate plants. Not too much too early as I like the ground to freeze.


Not to get too winded on this but I’ll add one more opinion. I like my grass to live through the winter. Shocking, right? That’s why I manage for bentgrass because winter is so harsh and it stands up to the test. Bent can have winter kill but not like poa. Go to a no budget little Ma and Pa 9 hole course with bent greens and see how good those greens are when there is winter killed poa on golf courses. In fact, winter is probably a big reason their greens have such great bent populations. Northern climate Superintendents are chasing their tails when managing poa. There’s plenty of blame to be dolled out to golfers, industry trends, tv, and unknowing Superintendents over the last 40-50 years that put golf courses in this position. If a course loses poa and rounds of golf/revenue, they should consider a different approach. We have better knowledge and technology to help us provide our members/golfers with a better product.


Northland is not 100% bent, never will be but there is a beautiful sward of bentgrasses that have been there since the 1920’s. I’m going to keep it that way.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #216 on: January 21, 2018, 01:54:09 PM »
So, I'm going to guess number 1&2. Interlachen number two and White Bear Yacht Club number one.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Morgan Clawson

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #217 on: January 21, 2018, 02:40:18 PM »
One of my favorites at Northland is the tough uphill par 4 3rd hole.

Tee Shot.  The green is at the top of the hill.  The trees on the right are gone now, but I like the pine/long grass presentation here.


Approach. This shot has lots of drama as anything hit short will roll back down part of the hill.


The two tier green.  Putting from the upper to the lower tier requires a gentle touch.


The 10th hole is similar to the 3rd as it marches sharply uphill.  It plays as a mild dogleg right from this tee box.


The approach.  I believe that all the pines in back of the green have been removed now.  The cart sits near the highest point on the course.


Many a player hits their 3rd shot from here on this par 4.5.


Navigating the hill continues on the green.


The 14th is another good par 4 with a unique green.  The tee shot is classic risk/reward as the best line is the left edge of the bunker.  Long drivers will hit it over the crest of the hill.


Downhill approach to this Pinehurst #2ish green.


The right and left halves of the green show the rolled edges and the general right to left cant of this complex putting surface.  Again, I believe that many of the pine trees have been repurposed.



« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 11:11:58 AM by Morgan Clawson »

Joe Hancock

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #218 on: January 21, 2018, 08:53:12 PM »
I’ll just add that the dialogue provided above by Chris and Jake is fabulous. The site needs more passionate positivity from turfheads like them. Thanks, guys!
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

PCCraig

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #219 on: January 21, 2018, 09:50:23 PM »
I’ll just add that the dialogue provided above by Chris and Jake is fabulous. The site needs more passionate positivity from turfheads like them. Thanks, guys!


I wholeheartedly agree. Thank you to both Chris and Jake for sharing their stories and experiences at Northland.
H.P.S.

PCCraig

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #2 Now Posted
« Reply #220 on: January 21, 2018, 10:10:43 PM »
#2 - Interlachen Country Club, Edina

The following introduction of our #2 course was contributed by Patrick Hodgdon, who caddied and played somewhere close to 1,000 rounds at ICC from 1998-2015:

Interlachen Country Club was founded in 1909, primarily as a result of the closing of the 9-hole Bryn Mawr course just west of Downtown which was to be turned into housing.

As legend has it two of the founding members trekked out in a snowstorm to make the final purchase of the land from the farmer with $12,000 in gold bullion. While he agreed to signing the deal, he refused to accept the payment that night however and the two founders returned with it downtown and stayed up all night with shotguns until the bank opened the next day.

The 146 acres of rolling farm land 15 miles southwest of Minneapolis was chosen after a long search, for both the beauty of the land and its setting next to Mirror Lake (holes 12,13,14) as well as the proximity to the streetcar line that ran from Downtown out to Lake Minnetonka through Hopkins along the north side of the property. An Interlachen stop was added (just North of hole 8) after the club opened by the President of the Streetcar line who was also a founding ICC member.

Willie Watson was selected to design the course, his third in Minnesota after Minikahda and Lafayette. One key feature of the original Watson design was a double green for #9 (roughly same layout as now) and #18 (reverse the current #10) which is now where the putting green is at the bottom of the hill below the clubhouse.

In 1919 the land that the current hole #4 sits on was acquired and Donald Ross was brought in to redesign the course.

In 1928 the severely sloping (30 degree back to front) short par-3 11th which was played from behind #10 green to behind #18 tee (which is now the built up back tee) was taken out by head professional Willie Kidd and he created the current short dogleg par-4 #16 and the long par-3 17th.

It’s interesting to me to note that Kidd’s new par-4 #16 has a similar layout and distance to Ross’ short Dog-leg left par-4 #14 over at nearby Minneapolis GC.

As most people know, in 1930 Bobby Jones won the US Open and third leg of his grand slam at Interlachen, cementing the course and the club in the history books.

The club was due to host the 1942 US Open that was canceled due to the war.

When they invited the USGA out again in the late 1950’s in hopes of hosting another championship, the club was told the course wasn’t challenging enough.

Robert Trent Jones was brought in to help around the time he was working on Hazeltine in the late 60's and (thankfully) was only allowed to lengthen #1 into a par-5 and re-do the par-3 third green along with some other minor bunker changes.

Cornish consulted and made some changes in the 80’s and then in 2006 his protege Silva was brought in to restore the bunkering, bottoming them out and grassing the faces, as well as pulling them into the fairway more at angles and to add some length before the 2008 US Women’s Open. Additionally they have restored the green sizes and significantly removed hundreds (might today now be in the 1,000s) of trees.

The biggest modern change to the course came a few years later at #11, which was converted from a par-5 that played as a 4.5 par hole, to its current state as a par-4 after removal of a half-dozen trees on the inside of the dogleg that only a few players could hit over and the installation of a new members tee 30 yards up.

Silva has continued to be consulted and more tweaks have been made to improve the golf course under the guidance of a solid greens committee and a great superintendant Matt Rostal.

More changes have been made recently to keep Interlachen competitive as a Championship test of golf. What once was a par-73 is now a par-70 from the black tees after the changes to 11 at the beginning of the decade and more recent changes to #1, taking out dozens of trees along the left side from 200 yards in and adding 3 strategic bunkers jutting out into the fairway at roughly 180, 140, and 90 yards out. It is now a 531-yard par 4 from the black tees with only the very longest hitters able to hit the green in two.

#9 has also been converted to a par-4 from the black tees as well.

Additionally new back tees were added to #2 (+50), #3 (+25), #4 (+50), #5 (+20), #8 (+30), and #18 (+20) stretching it out to 7,000 yards.

This fall the bunkers were completely rebuilt again with the Billy Bunker system and new Ohio's best sand being installed. 3 more interesting tweaks were being done architecturally: On both 6+7 the left, green side bunkers were being brought back to original Ross locations 20-30 yards back, as well as adding a third, small middle green-side bunker in the hill on #12 that was more recently returned to a fairway/fringe cut causing many shots to the false front 1/3 of the green to end up 60 yards out in the fairway at the bottom of the hill (and some mishit chips/putts from the back of the green).

As with other golden age courses the tree removal has done wonders for opening the beautiful vistas across the course and improving the turf throughout. In particular #12 is now nearly a wonderful skyline green.

Interlachen is yet another great example of Ross' ability to route a course using the best parts of the land, with eight of the holes playing to distinct elevated green sites.

My favorite holes are 2, 6, 10, 12, 13, and 18.

While the tradition and history of the club certainly adds to Interlachen's mystique and the enjoyment of a round there, some see it as slightly overrated in its position on the top ratings lists from a pure course/architecture perspective. Personally I think it is a quintessential Doak 7: the course is excellent and solid throughout, worth checking out if you get within 100 miles, without providing anything particularly unique to the world of golf. If Mr. Doak does make it back for a second visit, I do however believe it will warrant an upgrade to a 7 on his scale.


The following pictures were taken last summer by Jon Cavalier. Thank you to Jon for allowing us to post his pictures.

A view from the clubhouse patio of the par-5 1st:

The par-4 6th which returns to the clubhouse:

The par-5 9th, from the location of Bobby Jones' famed "Lilly Pad" shot:

Looking back on the 9th:

The impressive Interlachen clubhouse:

The short par-4 10th:

The scenic, par-3 13th with Mirror Lake in the background:

Extensive tree removal has restored "skyline" greens:

The green at the par-4 18th from the left:

Looking back on the 18th, with the 10th on the left:
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 10:22:43 AM by PCCraig »
H.P.S.

John Crowley

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #2 Now Posted
« Reply #221 on: January 22, 2018, 01:12:29 AM »
Patrick,
You are right the 16th at ICC and the 14th at MGC are quite similar. It could be due to Walter Hatch being involved on both projects around 1920. I’ll have to ask Jim Kidd this Summer what he may know about his grandfather’s involvement on the 16th.


I see that #10 is one of your favorite holes. It is a great short 4. The crowned green is a challenge to hit and hold. And then you have a real challenge making a putt.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #2 Now Posted
« Reply #222 on: January 22, 2018, 09:22:12 AM »
I love Interlachen. The course begins gently and grows in difficulty. Interlachen's challenge is not in distance but in its bunkering and challenging greens. It is one of those courses that would be a joy to play day in and day out.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jason Topp

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #2 Now Posted
« Reply #223 on: January 22, 2018, 10:05:49 AM »
I am not sure how many times I have played Interlachen but suspect it is less than most of the others on this list - 5 at most. 

The course sits on nearly ideal land with plenty of contour and that magic formula of hills that yields good golf without presenting a strenuous walk.

You hit more pitch shots to elevated greens on this course than any other which with I am familiar.  Four of the par 4's call for them and most of us will hit 3-4 more on either the par 5's or 4's. 

Two of the par 5's on the front are quite awkward.  The 4th features a big side-slope down to a pond in the layup area.  The 9th seems to pretty much force a 2nd shot into the left rough unless you can clear the thing.  The 18th green slopes so severely from back to front that it can get a bit silly at the club's normally fast green speeds. 

I do think that the back nine is about as good as golf gets.  You play par 4's that bend in every direction and play every length.  Both of the par 3's are fantastic - the 13th plays downhill to a green that slopes with the surrounding terrain and the 17th is a long par 3 that slopes with the surrounding terrain in the opposite direction.  I really enjoy the par 4-1/2 11th and the par 5 12th, which both follow the Ross tradition of an downhill tee shot and an elevated green with plenty of interest along the way. 

Interlachen has never been a clear-cut best in the state for me but a course that belongs in the upper echelon.   

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #224 on: January 22, 2018, 03:52:48 PM »


I also recall there was documentation of Ross responding to the Club's initial advance suggesting he was quite bust and they use Willie Watson. To which the Club responded they indeed wanted Ross and Ross only. There was a great deal of wealth in Duluth at that time. In fact, I believe there was a 40 year stretch in which Duluth had more millionaires per capita than any city in the US.


Chris:


Please find this letter if you can!  It might help explain some of the mystery surrounding the providence of Minnesota's new #1 course.


Also, Ron P tells every club he thinks they have one of Ross's best routings!

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